Official: Will Hughes joins Watford

[Day]

2 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Doesn't matter what follows, we paid way over the odds for him. Could argue we wouldn't have to sell Hughes if we hadn't signed him for £6m.

Think it's difficult to argue anything other than signing players who turn out to be average to poor most of the time for club-record fees makes achieving promotion significantly harder, especially with FFP in place.

Johnson has been significantly worse than Hendrick, Hughes and Bryson before injury. We spent record money on being worse. If we'd spent £2m on three players who suited Clement's style of play instead of £6m on Johnson, who knows where we'd be now.

He could go part way to redeeming himself, and for large spells towards the end of last season, he didn't look out of place in an upper mid-table side, which is the best compliment I can give him so far.

Given what he's given us for the past three seasons, he will never go down as a decent buy. No matter what happens next.

Overpaid, underpaid, I've officially retired on trying to put a valuation on a human body with an ability to kick a leather bag of air.

Was only Monday night I was talking of £15m for Hughes yet the rest of the football world seem to believe it was a decent deal, other than Forest fans mocking.

Was I wrong, am I biased to my blonde bombshell? obviously I'm biased but has that clouded by judgement to disgusting levels I should be ashamed of?

Too many questions, very few answers.

If we go up, Johnson is a key part of that, £7m or whatever it was is a drop in the ocean, I'll just look at it like that, they may have took £3m, we may have gone in all crazy, it happens. Seth Johnson was famously wanting X amount per week and stunned at the offer they put in front of him, had no issues grabbing a pen quick enough to sign.

 

[ketteringram]

Has Hughes been sold or not? 

[tomsdubs]

Just now, ketteringram said:

Has Hughes been sold or not? 

You being serious?

[RamNut]

3 hours ago, RamLad1884 said:

Mel Morris has said nothing for the 'Derby Way' this time though. Maybe he realises that the so called 'Derby Way' has not actually achieved anything except to provide some pretty football. I'm not old enough to remember the Brian Clough days but I'm sure his brand of football was based on hard work and determination. 

It was based on skill.

Brian liked talented players with a good attitude. He would have loved Will Hughes.

[ketteringram]

4 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

You being serious?

Thread title and first post don't match. 

[RamNut]

1 hour ago, Duracell said:

"I think it's a difficult one, had we stood in his way...knowing his force on [the move to Watford]."

The emerging picture is that Will Hughes wanted Premier League football next season, which is fair enough.

I think Rowett has been told he has to raise funds before he can spend them, hence selling him early and not waiting around for other bidders.

Presume a lot of this deal with be cash up-front as well.

Its not force, its forts......thoughts 

[Duracell]

18 minutes ago, David said:

Overpaid, underpaid, I've officially retired on trying to put a valuation on a human body with an ability to kick a leather bag of air.

Was only Monday night I was talking of £15m for Hughes yet the rest of the football world seem to believe it was a decent deal, other than Forest fans mocking.

Was I wrong, am I biased to my blonde bombshell? obviously I'm biased but has that clouded by judgement to disgusting levels I should be ashamed of?

Too many questions, very few answers.

If we go up, Johnson is a key part of that, £7m or whatever it was is a drop in the ocean, I'll just look at it like that, they may have took £3m, we may have gone in all crazy, it happens. Seth Johnson was famously wanting X amount per week and stunned at the offer they put in front of him, had no issues grabbing a pen quick enough to sign.

 

Although it's often unpredictable and volatile with transfer fees these days, I'd like to think someone at the club could recognise in future that if you want to sign a player of Johnson's style and ability, you don't need to pay £6m to get it.

The problem with the "it doesn't matter how much we spent if we go up" mentality is that it creates crazy fees. Johnson for £6m. McCormack for £12m. Ritchie for £10m.

Aside from it being irresponsible in case you don't go up, spending fees like that on Championship players (we're talking about players who haven't even made it in the top flight here!) is mind-numbingly, stupidly, recklessly, absurdly unnecessary.

Regardless of the market and whatever head-scratching fees are going on around us, you don't need to spend £6m on a midfield brute with a decent shot. You don't. You just don't. At all. It's stupid.

The "it won't matter what we've spent if we go up" attitude hasn't served us or Aston Villa very well at all.

[Cool As Custard]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but I'm not going through +200 pages to find out

Has anyone considered the fact that this might just be some cute commercial accumen from Mr Morris? No one will ever know for sure but Mel doesn't strike me as someone to get short changed on any deal. I'm not ITK but it wouldn't surprise me if on this deal a significant chunk (if not all) of the Anya & Vydra fees have been offset agains the perceived transfer fee shortfall.

Doing it in this way for sure causes fan outrage but actually might do us some good in the longer term. Imagine if we had received £12m for Hughes - this would send out a message to other clubs we have had a significant windfall & probably add £1-2m to every deal we were looking to do. We would be facing this challenge whilst still having to pay off the remainder of the Anya & Vydra fees. Watford wouldn't object to doing it this way as the fee makes them look good to their fans & we can plead (relative) poverty to clubs we are looking to buy from.

This way we don't get fleeced by other clubs whose players we are in for. Other clubs who after seeing us sell at this price might also think we are having a bit of a fire sale create interest for other players in our squad they might be interested in. If this happens I'd imagine Mel will not be quite as accommodating on those fees but it might drum up interest in a relatively quiet market.

As I said earlier we will never know for sure but given all the factors in our favour I'd be staggered if there isn't much more to this deal than has come to light.

[Day]

1 minute ago, Duracell said:

Although it's often unpredictable and volatile with transfer fees these days, I'd like to think someone at the club could recognise in future that if you want to sign a player of Johnson's style and ability, you don't need to pay £6m.

The problem with the "it doesn't matter how much we spent if we go up" mentality is that it creates crazy fees. Johnson for £6m. McCormack for £12m. Ritchie for £10m.

Aside from it being irresponsible in case you don't go up, spending fees like that on Championship players (we're talking about players who haven't even made it in the top flight here!) is mind-numbingly, stupidly, recklessly, absurdly unnecessary.

Regardless of the market and whatever head-scratching fees are going on around us, you don't need to spend £6m on a midfield brute with a decent shot. You don't. You just don't. At all. It's stupid.

The "it won't matter what we've spent if we go up" attitude hasn't served us or Aston Villa very well at all.

The crazy fees started with Trevor Francis, blame Forest. 

How do you value a player? what is it that adds numbers to the calculator, how do you put a numeric number on potential and ability? It's a question I've been chewing on myself and how I ever came to the number £15m for Hughes, why £15m not £14m, you never leave a car radio volume on a odd number so why a players valuation? 

Then I gave up, put it down to a number I pulled out my arse that sounded good. 

As fans we don't have all the facts to hand, we have players contracts guesstimated from a video game and comparisons to players we see as equals through our rose tinted spectacles. 

We have no idea on the fitness levels, desire to play for a club, move to your city, how desperate the manager wants, how keen is the selling club to sell, what competition there is for his signature. I doubt I've even scratched the surface.

If Clement took us up, if Bradley Johnson won player of the season, fans player of the season, 15 goals from midfield and 10 assists, would you have said we overpaid on £6m?

Cast your mind back to the day he signed, before a ball was kicked for us and place a valuation on his head and tell me how you arrived at that figure, why it wasn't £1m more or £1m less. 

[RamLad1884]

19 minutes ago, David said:

The crazy fees started with Trevor Francis, blame Forest. 

How do you value a player? what is it that adds numbers to the calculator, how do you put a numeric number on potential and ability? It's a question I've been chewing on myself and how I ever came to the number £15m for Hughes, why £15m not £14m, you never leave a car radio volume on a odd number so why a players valuation? 

Then I gave up, put it down to a number I pulled out my arse that sounded good. 

As fans we don't have all the facts to hand, we have players contracts guesstimated from a video game and comparisons to players we see as equals through our rose tinted spectacles. 

We have no idea on the fitness levels, desire to play for a club, move to your city, how desperate the manager wants, how keen is the selling club to sell, what competition there is for his signature. I doubt I've even scratched the surface.

If Clement took us up, if Bradley Johnson won player of the season, fans player of the season, 15 goals from midfield and 10 assists, would you have said we overpaid on £6m?

Cast your mind back to the day he signed, before a ball was kicked for us and place a valuation on his head and tell me how you arrived at that figure, why it wasn't £1m more or £1m less. 

With logic like that we might actually be taken seriously as a voice of reason at Derby, be careful @David 

[archied]

First rowett interview I've seen where he appeared uncomfortable ,, he blinked ten to the dozen and I thought had an edge to him in terms of having to make it clear that he is the manager but also not totally disregard the fans views on Hughes sale which whatever way you slice will have sections of the fan base up in arms and questioning whether he knows what he is doing ,very early into his tenure .

Managing derby at this time is without doubt a tough job,, I hope he is up to it and I hope mel gives him time to see whether he is up to it 

[tomsdubs]

1 hour ago, ketteringram said:

Thread title and first post don't match. 

You know thread titles get edited to suit right? It was announced on pretty much every major platform possible yesterday.

[ramblur]

2 hours ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

Well we were told in the 15/16 season that we were managing fine and we could easily spend the money on players we were. Now apparently FFP has become an issue. 

It wasn't an issue in 15/16 because exceptional income facilitated the high spending.I've no doubt it won't have been an issue in 16/17 because of player sales/loan fee,and I've no doubt it won't be this year for a couple of reasons. FFP is an 'issue' at the start of every year,but it only becomes an issue with consequences if we breach our allowable deficit.

Because of the £4m undershoot in 15/16,and the possibility of another undershoot in 16/17,it seems pretty certain to me that we'll be able to work within £17m+ this year,but will need to get back below £13m (based on 'normal' income and expenditure) in 18/19 if we don't go up this year. If the squad is cut to the levels indicated by the end of the Jan window in 2019,then I don't see a problem.However,as there's no way we can achieve the target this season,then part of that £17m is going to cover the expenses of players we may not particularly want.

It wouldn't be all doom and gloom in 18/19 though,mainly because of the way amortisation is now treated.If we'd signed ,for instance,Wisdom for £2m over a 4 year contract prior to 15/16,the amortisation would have been £500k/year. Now,however, with residual values being allocated (and in Wisdom's case,being a relatively young player,I'd expect it to be quite high),the amortisation will likely be far less than £500k,but it's impossible to say by how much without knowing the R/V.

Therefore,in 18/19 (if still in this division) trading would be a lot easier -you could still have your £2m signing if wages matched that of an outgoing player,and if such (outgoing) player weren't sold at a significant book loss. 

[GadFly]

2 hours ago, Cool As Custard said:

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but I'm not going through +200 pages to find out

Has anyone considered the fact that this might just be some cute commercial accumen from Mr Morris? No one will ever know for sure but Mel doesn't strike me as someone to get short changed on any deal. I'm not ITK but it wouldn't surprise me if on this deal a significant chunk (if not all) of the Anya & Vydra fees have been offset agains the perceived transfer fee shortfall.

Doing it in this way for sure causes fan outrage but actually might do us some good in the longer term. Imagine if we had received £12m for Hughes - this would send out a message to other clubs we have had a significant windfall & probably add £1-2m to every deal we were looking to do. We would be facing this challenge whilst still having to pay off the remainder of the Anya & Vydra fees. Watford wouldn't object to doing it this way as the fee makes them look good to their fans & we can plead (relative) poverty to clubs we are looking to buy from.

This way we don't get fleeced by other clubs whose players we are in for. Other clubs who after seeing us sell at this price might also think we are having a bit of a fire sale create interest for other players in our squad they might be interested in. If this happens I'd imagine Mel will not be quite as accommodating on those fees but it might drum up interest in a relatively quiet market.

As I said earlier we will never know for sure but given all the factors in our favour I'd be staggered if there isn't much more to this deal than has come to light.

Look at Owen Bradley's Twitter, confirmed the other day that any talk of Anya/Vydra debt being written off as part of the deal is straw-clutching nonsense, I'm afraid.

[G STAR RAM]

4 hours ago, Duracell said:

Were we?

Bizarre if we were told that. I don't see how a Championship club could make a net spend of £15-20 million every summer and not fall foul of FFP.

Even the Hendrick sale last summer was negated by the purchase of Anya and Vydra.

Not true, income from Hendrick sale all recognised in year 1, cost of Vydra and Anya purchases spread over their contracts and, with the way this is now being done, this could be weighted so the cost is not taken until the last year of the contract.

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, Duracell said:

Doesn't matter what follows, we paid way over the odds for him. 

What is your opinion of the fee we got for Hughes?

[Duracell]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

What is your opinion of the fee we got for Hughes?

Good deal for Watford. Worth what a Premier League club was prepared to pay. I'm sure if we held out longer, someone else would have shown interest and we could have hit eight figures, but we got what we got.

Not sure why you called me up on that, the fact we got £8m for Hughes and paid £6m for Johnson proves how ridiculously overpriced he was.

[G STAR RAM]

Just now, Duracell said:

Good deal for Watford. Worth what a Premier League club was prepared to pay. I'm sure if we held out longer, someone else would have shown interest and we could have hit eight figures, but we got what we got.

Not sure why you called me up on that, the fact we got £8m for Hughes and paid £6m for Johnson proves how ridiculously overpriced he was.

Not calling you out on it, see you as a sensible poster and interested in your opinion.

BJ scored 15 goals and was instrumental in Norwich promotion season but you see £6m as a big overpayment. 

On that basis,  I find it hard to value Hughes at £6m.

The only thing Watford are paying for is potential and based on the last 2 seasons, he has not shown much promise of living up to the potential he had showed in the previous 3 to 4 seasons. 

I really rate Hughes by the way but don't struggle to see how his valuation has been arrived at.

I think the only thing we really had going in our favour was his new contract.

[Sparkle]

4 hours ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

We've been borderline FFP since the transfer splash of 15/16, that's why Hendrick and now Hughes have had to go. It's not an issue in terms of we're going to fail but a sale is probably needed every summer, now

I am sure we have, but when Hendrick was sold and Martin loaned out we immediately blew more on Anya and Vydra with no gain (and on the pitch a big lose)

[Andicis]

I think, with the lack of depth England has in midfield, if Hughes has a good season for Watford I wouldn't be surprised to see him play for England. Hughes and Livermore play similar positions, however I certainly know which player I would rather pick. Maybe not in the World Cup squad, but I think for a friendly, if Hughes nails down a starting position, and proves himself he'll be called up.