David Moyes Slap

[StringerBell]

34 minutes ago, Boycie said:

The woman's remained quiet I see?

well there's a change.

now that's sexist!

This bloke lost his job for saying this.

 

[Day]

26 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

This bloke lost his job for saying this.

 

Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I've been waiting a long time for this.

@Boycie

[Boycie]

Shurrup yer girl

[Duracell]

3 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I've not listened (can't be arsed with video clips tbh) but I would point out that, to anyone who's been on the receiving end of domestic violence, "give her a slap" isn't very funny.

Poor choice of words, no intention of causing offence, apology given, move on.

Give it a listen - completely had that point of view until I heard the tape.

Think about all the things you've ever said that written down out of context would look horrible, but were pretty or wholely innocent in the way they were said.

It's not a funny joke but no one left that conversation thinking that anyone was getting a slap.

[Sith Happens]

It amazes me if people jump all over this as a proper threat and sexism, how on earth do books and films like 50 shades even get published?, you only have to look online and there is a massive market for that type of novel involving a perceived violence to women i guess.

Ok, i know its all fiction and its a choice of the women who read the books if they do or not, and likewise if they decide to explore further, but surely the same can be said for this incident, it should have been left to the woman involved to decide if she took offence and put in a complaint if she felt she was offended or felt threatened.

Its the same thing with periceved racism, bans of st georges crosses or calling christmas winter fest or whatever some looney do gooder decides 'other' people are offended by, when most of the time no one actually is. I am sure some people must make a career out of it.

[Anon]

34 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Give it a listen - completely had that point of view until I heard the tape.

Think about all the things you've ever said that written down out of context would look horrible, but were pretty or wholely innocent in the way they were said.

It's not a funny joke but no one left that conversation thinking that anyone was getting a slap.

It would be interesting to hear from the journalist. If she came out and said that Moyes was really angry, despite his tone, and she considered it a genuine warning not to ask difficult questions in the future maybe my opinion would change. I would want to know why the video was released instead of her and the production team talking to Moyes or Sunderland first though.

[StringerBell]

7 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

If you tested me with a ton of internet 'liberal or conservative', 'what party are you', 'republican or democrat' quizzes etc., I think I'd come out as pretty much 60% liberal and 40% conservative in most of them, maybe the other way round in a few others. I like to think I'm a fairly balanced individual, bit of a fan of playing devils advocate in certain situations but fairly down the middle.

But this generation/current climate of political correctness makes me feel like I'm the most right wing 20 year old on the entire planet.

The basic politeness and human decency political correctness should stand for has been largely replaced by outrage culture, people seem to be completely addicted to that feeling of righteous anger when a celebrity/politician/sport personality f*cks up.

And I completely get it, have you ever been righteously angry about something and slammed a person for whatever they've said/done? It's a great feeling, it's part of why a forum like this is popular. I know I rarely get tired of defending a certain fat, mardy striker or his lazy, "constantly offside", overpaid replacement.

And there are lots of examples where people are right to jump on someone like that, let's say if a presidential candidate was boasting about sexually assaulting women. But when there's none of those around, the mob seems to go after whatever they can get their hands on. If you take a couple of minutes to look into the allegations about the most subscribed YouTuber Pewdiepie's anti-semitism you'll see that they're unfounded, but in this culture of outrage the public backlash for anything that possibly looks like the long lost third cousin twice removed of racism meant he lost the majority of his sponsors.

Obviously taking offence is something that personal and subjective, but I find it so difficult to see how someone could be offended by this interaction, particularly when you listen to the recording of it.

Cant figure out how I'm going to sign this one off (its two in the morning ffs) so I'm going to go with a patented Eddie sigh.

Sigh

What happened to Pewdiepie was utterly shameful. Though he lost a lot of money he's thankfully well off enough to cope with it.

Theyve also gone after a youtuber I watch called JonTron saying he's basically a Nazi. Admittedly he made it easy for them with some of the clumsy things he said, but I've heard him in live streams and I'm pretty sure he's a good guy. They were after him as soon as he associated with some political youtubers who also get frequently slandered. 

The Daily Mail have now gone after another Youtube guy whose channel is called slingshot, saying he teaches ISIS how to kill British police officers, when he was actually pointing out how naff a Kevlar vest was that he bought from Amazon.

I know why the media go after youtubers though, as they're a direct threat to their earnings. It's ****** up but there's a rationale behind it. Why people like David Moyes is fair game I've no idea.

[McRamFan]

Anyone with half a brain sell, that has media around them a lot, should always engage that half cell before opening mouth. Is he sexist, violent to women, no, he is just an ass.

[McRainy]

The trouble with the political correctness gone mad argument is that we do still have a thoroughly patriarchal society. A woman is assaulted or sexually harassed in the UK on average every ten minutes (not the same woman, obvs). 

If you think this is unacceptable and want to challenge the power structures which make it possible, how do you go about it? How do you raise awareness and educate people to see things differently?

Societal values have shifted considerably around issues of prejudice like racism and homophobia; in most circles it is no longer acceptable to openly express those views. 

Misogyny is far more deeply ingrained and I think it is hard for people to see it when they've never been on the receiving end of it. Even for women it is internalised, to the extent that being disempowered in many situations is taken as normal or inevitable. 

An incident like this is seized upon because it is high profile and appears to be something concrete to point to. Whether or not it is a good example of sexist behaviour is debatable, but I think the backlash in discussions like this is more telling.

Even people who see themselves as socially progressive don't feel that misogyny is sufficiently as issue to use every opportunity to counter it. The feminist cause is seen as angry and shouty and keen to take offence, and this bothers people more than the fact 50% of the population can't walk safely down the street at night, or that 1 in 3 females will have been sexually assaulted by the time they're 25. 

This example with Moyes may be trivial and inconsequential, but the underlying problem is anything but. 

[StringerBell]

1 hour ago, Lambchop said:

The trouble with the political correctness gone mad argument is that we do still have a thoroughly patriarchal society. A woman is assaulted or sexually harassed in the UK on average every ten minutes (not the same woman, obvs). 

If you think this is unacceptable and want to challenge the power structures which make it possible, how do you go about it? How do you raise awareness and educate people to see things differently?

Societal values have shifted considerably around issues of prejudice like racism and homophobia; in most circles it is no longer acceptable to openly express those views. 

Misogyny is far more deeply ingrained and I think it is hard for people to see it when they've never been on the receiving end of it. Even for women it is internalised, to the extent that being disempowered in many situations is taken as normal or inevitable. 

An incident like this is seized upon because it is high profile and appears to be something concrete to point to. Whether or not it is a good example of sexist behaviour is debatable, but I think the backlash in discussions like this is more telling.

Even people who see themselves as socially progressive don't feel that misogyny is sufficiently as issue to use every opportunity to counter it. The feminist cause is seen as angry and shouty and keen to take offence, and this bothers people more than the fact 50% of the population can't walk safely down the street at night, or that 1 in 3 females will have been sexually assaulted by the time they're 25. 

This example with Moyes may be trivial and inconsequential, but the underlying problem is anything but. 

I don't want to challenge any power structures that make sexual assault possible. I like my freedom. How would you make sexual assault impossible?

And we don't live in a patriarchal society. 

If a woman had jokingly said she'll give a man a slap do you think it would have been a story in the news? If we do live in a patriarchal society, then the patriarchs are not very good at being patriarchs.

I don't know whether your stats are correct or not but if they're feminist stats I'll take them with a large pinch of salt.

Do you know the streets are more unsafe for men than women? Are they the 50% you refer to?

[IlsonDerby]

I'm of the opinion that he wouldn't have made the same joke to a male reporter, so why make it to her? It wasn't particularly funny or witty. 

 

 

[IlsonDerby]

24 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

I don't want to challenge any power structures that make sexual assault possible. I like my freedom. How would you make sexual assault impossible?

And we don't live in a patriarchal society. 

If a woman had jokingly said she'll give a man a slap do you think it would have been a story in the news? If we do live in a patriarchal society, then the patriarchs are not very good at being patriarchs.

I don't know whether your stats are correct or not but if they're feminist stats I'll take them with a large pinch of salt.

Do you know the streets are more unsafe for men than women? Are they the 50% you refer to?

this is a near impossible task but one we shouldn't try and shy away from. 

We are more likely to get close to reducing this through educating young males. Removing this blame the victim culture where we look at how much victims had drunk/how short their skirts were. Educating them that consent is necessary all of the time and that girls can change their minds at any time in the lead up and that's completely their decision. 

[McRainy]

31 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

I don't want to challenge any power structures that make sexual assault possible. I like my freedom. How would you make sexual assault impossible?

In what way would your freedom be threatened by challenging the objectification of women, and providing a justice system where crimes against them actually get reported and solved?

My 'feminist' stats are from the government database. It makes depressing reading unless, as you say, we don't live in a patriarchal society after all. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

[JoetheRam]

There is no way the stat about 1 in 3 women being sexually assaulted by the time they are 25 is true.

Surely?

[IlsonDerby]

Just now, JoetheRam said:

There is no way the stat about 1 in 3 women being sexually assaulted by the time they are 25 is true.

Surely?

True, it really hit my form hard when I did PSHE with them and they realised that's potentially 4 of our form that could experience that. I think it really made them see the severity of it.

[McRainy]

2 minutes ago, JoetheRam said:

There is no way the stat about 1 in 3 women being sexually assaulted by the time they are 25 is true.

Surely?

31% according to the NSPCC stats for 2011, quoted here, so not quite  

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

 

[IlsonDerby]

2 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

31% according to the NSPCC stats for 2011, quoted here, so not quite  

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

 

Basically a third. The stat is 'almost a third of...' 

[McRainy]

5 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Basically a third. The stat is 'almost a third of...' 

I think it takes figures like these for people to realise just how different your life can be, simply because you are female. That is before we start talking about things like the gender pay gap, still at over 18% in the UK. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-gender-pay-gap

[IlsonDerby]

17 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

I think it takes figures like these for people to realise just how different your life can be, simply because you are female. That is before we start talking about things like the gender pay gap, still at over 18% in the UK. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-gender-pay-gap

There isn't a single country in the world where women are paid equally to men. That's alarming in 2017. 

That isn't liberals being too sensitive, that isn't political correctness gone mad. This is a problem. When I have children if I have a daughter I want her to grow up in a world that provides equal opportunities to her as a male with her attributes would have. 

[StringerBell]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

this is a near impossible task but one we shouldn't try and shy away from. 

We are more likely to get close to reducing this through educating young males. Removing this blame the victim culture where we look at how much victims had drunk/how short their skirts were. Educating them that consent is necessary all of the time and that girls can change their minds at any time in the lead up and that's completely their decision. 

We should shy away from it if it's impossible. There will always be crime in a free society. Goals designed to completely eradicate crime must curtail freedoms.

Which young males in particular do we need to educate about consent? And why just males?

Police are taught to automatically believe purported victims of sexual assault, which is wrong. If they are asked what they are wearing and it's not relevant then that's wrong but if they want to know for purposes of gathering evidence it's fine. Regardless, It's not an injustice on par with automatically believing someone as that goes against the tenet of being innocent until proven guilty.

57 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

In what way would your freedom be threatened by challenging the objectification of women, and providing a justice system where crimes against them actually get reported and solved?

My 'feminist' stats are from the government database. It makes depressing reading unless, as you say, we don't live in a patriarchal society after all. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

Challenging the objectification of women? Where's that come from? And who says I have a problem with objectifying women, or indeed objectifying men? If we couldn't 'objectify' people then the career of fashion model would be over. I've had enough of people like Anita Sarkeesian demanding a top down restructuring of one of my hobbies so the freedom for people to play and make computer games they like would be one such freedom denied to me if objectifying women must be 'challenged'.

What are the problems with the justice system? And what would you do to solve these problems?

Some women have problems that are exclusive to being women. That doesn't make them an oppressed class. We do not live in a patriarchy.

I haven't got time to go through the stats but after a quick glance I see those stats about the amount of women claiming to be victims of a sexual offence are mostly 'other' sexual offences such as indecent exposure and unwanted touching. I wonder how many men experience unwanted touching and it doesn't even occur to them that they should consider that sexual assault. I must have been sexually assaulted a fair few times.