RoyMac5 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just now, Millenniumram said: he needs a proper run of games to integrate into the style of play- and it may take a slight adaptation in our system to do that, but is that really a bad thing after recent results? There's very little a player like vydra can do ... What's he been doing in training then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 23 minutes ago, Ram79 said: How many managers is a lot? Thought he was fairly successful before coming here Only with Watford really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Why do we not seem to possess any players who can fulfil their own roles without the support of others? Vydra needs a target man to play off, our centre backs need the screening of a CDM, Johnny Russell needs to play to help the full back out, etc. Maybe we should just pick players based on their ability to do the core role their position requires, and stop delegating vital parts of the position to others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 29 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: What's he been doing in training then? No idea, ain't about the stalker life- however after what I've seen on the pitch recently, something has to change, and the £8 million striker on the bench who's been in the team of the year before would appear a good start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 56 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: No idea, ain't about the stalker life- however after what I've seen on the pitch recently, something has to change, and the £8 million striker on the bench who's been in the team of the year before would appear a good start Even if he's crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Alpha said: Even if he's crap? Well he's evidently not crap, because he's done it at this level twice before- just because he hasn't performed well for us doesn't mean he's a bad player. Doesn't mean he will perform for us either. But at this stage, taking a chance on a proven player like him is worth a go, I'm convinced him and Nugent will work together, and eventually with Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 16 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: But at this stage, taking a chance on a proven player like him is worth a go, I'm convinced him and Nugent will work together, and eventually with Martin. You go tell Benty he's dropped then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just now, RoyMac5 said: You go tell Benty he's dropped then. Harsh after his goal scoring form tbf, he's been one of our better players this season. But with the season gone, we need to plan for the long term, bents weaknesses were highlighted the other night, didn't do anywhere near enough to get on the ball, partly down to the system we played of course hence why I'm advocating a change. Would also be interesting to see how Bent plays in a 4231 for that matter however Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Well he's evidently not crap, because he's done it at this level twice before- just because he hasn't performed well for us doesn't mean he's a bad player. Doesn't mean he will perform for us either. But at this stage, taking a chance on a proven player like him is worth a go, I'm convinced him and Nugent will work together, and eventually with Martin. He might come good. But those two seasons at Watford are about all we have to go on. Mac can't just pick him based on his price tag and what he did for Watford in 2014. Everyone else has to show a positive. Some lads only get 10 minutes every other game. They do alright then they get half hour. Then they get a start. Weimann has done it. Camara has done it. Russell has done it several times. Everyone who starts has come and made an impact Vydra's best game? I can think of a few where he's been quiet. I can think of a few he's shown a decent pass or turn. I can think of a couple where put through 1v1 and showed a decent first touch. But that's the best I can say for him. It's bad when you're remembering these things as positives. For Weimann I remember a couple of games. For Russell I remember little runs of form. For Hughes I remember runs of bad form because he's consistently a top performer so his bad games are easier to name. But for Vydra? It's just the odd touch, turn and pass in the 12 (?) starts and however many subs. He gives Mac no excuse to put him on ahead of anyone else. With the shortage of options I can't imagine he'd need to show a lot. Just come off the bench, pick the ball up and start influencing the tempo, the momentum of the match. But there's been nothing. What he's shown in 12 starts Johnny Russell (who I have never been a big fan of) has shown over a dozen times this season. A nice turn and little run? Not enough. There's lads doing that. Camara does that. But he comes on and demands the ball. He dances too much. He's not too bright. But he demands the ball 20 times and does something decent for 5 of them. Vydra doesn't make an impact. He doesn't demand the ball. He gets it 5 times and does something decent 1 time. He may come good. I'm just saying he's not been good, he doesn't deserve anything. He's not earned the right to play. He's been rubbish for us. He may go on to be great. But we can't keep shoving him out there based on his Mum's word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Alpha said: He may come good. I'm just saying he's not been good, he doesn't deserve anything. He's not earned the right to play. He's been rubbish for us. He may go on to be great. But we can't keep shoving him out there based on his Mum's word Have a like. Surely if he was showing in training he'd get more time? Look at the effect the Nuge has had in what 90 minutes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 28 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Well he's evidently not crap, because he's done it at this level twice before- just because he hasn't performed well for us doesn't mean he's a bad player. Doesn't mean he will perform for us either. But at this stage, taking a chance on a proven player like him is worth a go, I'm convinced him and Nugent will work together, and eventually with Martin. He's only ever done it at Watford where he had a system set up that was perfect for him. A system which we quite simply, don't want to play and couldn't play because we don't have the players for it. In fact I'd highlight his success as being down to Troy Deeney, rather than simply being next to a target man. Deeney has been the only member of the Watford attack that has look excellent at every level, whereas Vydra and more recently Ighalo have both fallen off. I'd say Vydra's previous success is almost entirely down to Deeney than himself. He's also failed more times than he's been successful, so I'd hardly call that proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 24 minutes ago, Alpha said: He might come good. But those two seasons at Watford are about all we have to go on. Mac can't just pick him based on his price tag and what he did for Watford in 2014. Everyone else has to show a positive. Some lads only get 10 minutes every other game. They do alright then they get half hour. Then they get a start. Weimann has done it. Camara has done it. Russell has done it several times. Everyone who starts has come and made an impact Vydra's best game? I can think of a few where he's been quiet. I can think of a few he's shown a decent pass or turn. I can think of a couple where put through 1v1 and showed a decent first touch. But that's the best I can say for him. It's bad when you're remembering these things as positives. For Weimann I remember a couple of games. For Russell I remember little runs of form. For Hughes I remember runs of bad form because he's consistently a top performer so his bad games are easier to name. But for Vydra? It's just the odd touch, turn and pass in the 12 (?) starts and however many subs. He gives Mac no excuse to put him on ahead of anyone else. With the shortage of options I can't imagine he'd need to show a lot. Just come off the bench, pick the ball up and start influencing the tempo, the momentum of the match. But there's been nothing. What he's shown in 12 starts Johnny Russell (who I have never been a big fan of) has shown over a dozen times this season. A nice turn and little run? Not enough. There's lads doing that. Camara does that. But he comes on and demands the ball. He dances too much. He's not too bright. But he demands the ball 20 times and does something decent for 5 of them. Vydra doesn't make an impact. He doesn't demand the ball. He gets it 5 times and does something decent 1 time. He may come good. I'm just saying he's not been good, he doesn't deserve anything. He's not earned the right to play. He's been rubbish for us. He may go on to be great. But we can't keep shoving him out there based on his Mum's word Fair play for the in depth reply, don't nessercerily disagree with you in the main, he hasn't done enough in a Derby shirt so far definately not. I'm not making excuses for his overall time here so far, he's been incredibly disappointing, but I think we have to cut him a bit of slack, his longest run in the team was under a manager who couldn't manage an under 9s team, and the service from midfield hasn't been the best at times. If we were still close to the playoffs I wouldn't be advocating putting him in as I think it would take a while to get him right, but we have to look for the future now ready for next season and, without any evidence to back it up, I'm still convinced there's something there. Dunno what it is, but something in the way he plays and the way I've seen him play before gives me hope for him, and I think too many people are writing him off before he's shown his true ability. Wont argue at all that he's been any good so far, because he hasnt, but I genuinely think he could work with an intelligent player like Nugent or Martin behind him, like he did with deeney at Watford and that could really add a much needed new dimension to our play to challenge defenders. He doesn't really deserve the chance no, and I wouldn't normally want a player coming in like that, but we need something different and it may just work, who knows till we try Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 6 or 7 crap seasons and 2 good seasons. Law of averages .... he's crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, rammieib said: 6 or 7 crap seasons and 2 good seasons. Law of averages .... he's crap! Chris Martin- 5 good season, 8 crap ones, law of averages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, lrm14 said: He's only ever done it at Watford where he had a system set up that was perfect for him. A system which we quite simply, don't want to play and couldn't play because we don't have the players for it. In fact I'd highlight his success as being down to Troy Deeney, rather than simply being next to a target man. Deeney has been the only member of the Watford attack that has look excellent at every level, whereas Vydra and more recently Ighalo have both fallen off. I'd say Vydra's previous success is almost entirely down to Deeney than himself. He's also failed more times than he's been successful, so I'd hardly call that proven. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 32 minutes ago, lrm14 said: He's only ever done it at Watford where he had a system set up that was perfect for him. A system which we quite simply, don't want to play and couldn't play because we don't have the players for it. In fact I'd highlight his success as being down to Troy Deeney, rather than simply being next to a target man. Deeney has been the only member of the Watford attack that has look excellent at every level, whereas Vydra and more recently Ighalo have both fallen off. I'd say Vydra's previous success is almost entirely down to Deeney than himself. He's also failed more times than he's been successful, so I'd hardly call that proven. I wouldn't say that deeney made him have the ability to score 36 goals over 2 seasons, but this is the point I'm making about a partnership with Nugent. It could have a similar affect imo on vydras game, Nugent is a very intelligent player much like deeney, who I think will be able to get the most out of vydras pace and movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 hours ago, reveldevil said: Why do we not seem to possess any players who can fulfil their own roles without the support of others? Vydra needs a target man to play off, our centre backs need the screening of a CDM, Johnny Russell needs to play to help the full back out, etc. Maybe we should just pick players based on their ability to do the core role their position requires, and stop delegating vital parts of the position to others? Post of the day ! you know what .. If I am a striker or a midfielder and the ball isn't getting to me when it ought to be ...then I am going to go and find it, shout for it, run for it or whatever .... within whatever limits the coach has placed tactically. .. This isn't happening. To few wanting the ball. Standing there waiting for it doesn't classify as wanting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 25 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: I wouldn't say that deeney made him have the ability to score 36 goals over 2 seasons, but this is the point I'm making about a partnership with Nugent. It could have a similar affect imo on vydras game, Nugent is a very intelligent player much like deeney, who I think will be able to get the most out of vydras pace and movement Well without Deeney has been absolutely woeful at every club he's been at. Ighalo was great in the champ, good for one season in the premier league but disgraceful this season and has now ran off to China. The fact that Deeney has been so consistent for Watford over the past few seasons suggests that he's quite simply a cut above his partners. The Nugent idea is great but we'd have to completely change our shape to something that didn't work under Nigel Pearson, for a player who has been dreadful whenever he's been given the chance. We're also dropping Bent who has had an excellent scoring record recently. If you're going to change shape to something like that, I'd much rather see Nugent playing off Bent, rather than Vydra in the mix at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffle Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 16 minutes ago, lrm14 said: Well without Deeney has been absolutely woeful at every club he's been at. Ighalo was great in the champ, good for one season in the premier league but disgraceful this season and has now ran off to China. The fact that Deeney has been so consistent for Watford over the past few seasons suggests that he's quite simply a cut above his partners. The Nugent idea is great but we'd have to completely change our shape to something that didn't work under Nigel Pearson, for a player who has been dreadful whenever he's been given the chance. We're also dropping Bent who has had an excellent scoring record recently. If you're going to change shape to something like that, I'd much rather see Nugent playing off Bent, rather than Vydra in the mix at all. I think it would be fair to play Nugent in behind Bent in a 4231 against Aston Villa and bring Vydra on when it looks like something different could be needed. Nugent's intelligent and can hold the ball up and that's exactly what Vydra needs. I'd rather risk playing Vydra than forcing back a not fully fit Hughes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEL Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, rammieib said: 6 or 7 crap seasons and 2 good seasons. Law of averages .... he's crap! He's better than you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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