LesterRam Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I was talking to my neighbour yesterday who is a good 92 years young and still ballroom dancing , we sat on my front wall discussing life and the economy and we got onto the so called "lost generation" now he was telling about all the other neighbours and one thing that came to light is that sons/daughters are not leaving there parents house because of financial restraints, my question is are we losing a generation to rising house prices and stagnant wages ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Does them not being able to leave home constitute them as a 'lost' generation? Last time I heard that phrase it was in relation to those that didn't make it through the Great War. Bit of a difference.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 The bigger concern with the 'lost generation' is that going to university is the norm, while developing tradesman skills - plumbers/plasterers/sparks etc etc - is seen to be a lower 'dirty' form of work. It's providing a vacuum of these necessary trades, which in my eyes is contributing to what we see in the housing market. People are buying new because its a more manageable cost - you can mortgage a house, you can't mortgage the work done on a house, and its getting more and more expensive to renovate, and easier to buy. Look at how many houses there are out there that need some work done. But people won't do it - unless its the buy to let market.I regret going to university. Damn near £25k worth of debt, for 3 years wasted. Yet, I saw no other way - the 6th form I went to pretty much pushed you through the doors of a university. Apprenticeships weren't given a second though. This has only been exacerbated by making education compulsory until the age of 18.Wind back 20 years. How many people went for an apprenticeship with a local trades type? A fair few, I'd bet.After coming out of uni with nothing good - I didn't complete my pyschology degree, which I needed to do for a career in the field - I went back to basics. Got myself an IT apprenticeship. Best decision I've ever made, work wise.Problem is, it's not glamourous enough. You don't earn £30-40k, like all the glossy prospectuses say you will. I've been with my employer over 18months, and I don't earn £20k yet. But I don't need to - I'm getting by. Sure, I can't afford fancy holidays, or a brand new car, or a house. But I'm renting with my girlfriend, can afford to keep my car going, and still have enough spare to follow Derby around and treat the better half every now and then, and not worry about money all that much. Another problem is that some businesses simply use apprentices as cheap labour. £2.73/h for anyone 16-18, and the business gets government grants for taking apprentices. When I was searching around, there were so many 'customer service' apprenticeships, that were a year's cheap labour with no prospect of a job at the end of it. Get an apprentice in, pay peanuts for a job you would normally pay NMW for, get free gov't money, apprentice leaves at the end, rinse and repeat.Yes, you need people going to university. I wouldn't fancy going to see a doctor, dentist, psychologist,that didn't have one. But when you have courses at university reading in Fine Art with a side order of Lithuanian Literature? What on earth does that achieve? Just another ton of debt and a piece of paper that has little real world relevance.What you also get with all these university places, is a great big debt bubble. Student Finance England probably won't get back all the money I owe, and I got in when a year's tuition fee was £3220/year. How many of these that are joining university where they are maximum £9000/year will pay off their £40k+ debt within 25 years? I failed to see then, and still do, how raising university fees helps anyone. All it did was put a few people off going.Who needs to do better? The government? Colleges? Universities? Employers? All of the above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterRam Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 Does them not being able to leave home constitute them as a 'lost' generation? Last time I heard that phrase it was in relation to those that didn't make it through the Great War. Bit of a difference.... well yeah that's how the conversation started and he, like my father was in the fleet air arms I am sure there will be a thread regarding the great war shortly considering it will be poppy day, I am more concerned about our current situation and are we kicking a can down the road attitude to lack of housing and mass economic migration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 well yeah that's how the conversation started and he, like my father was in the fleet air arms I am sure there will be a thread regarding the great war shortly considering it will be poppy day, I am more concerned about our current situation and are we kicking a can down the road attitude to lack of housing and mass economic migration. Well it won't just be us Tbf. Population growth across the planet is exponential. Overcrowding and scarcity of resources is going to become more and more of a problem over the next century, for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashz09 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I used to be a part time cleaner living at home. Went from 5 1/2 hours to 8 hours a day. Didn't buy my self nothing really kept saving as I didn't want to spend it ended up having a fair bit. I brought a house with it as I wasn't going to pay someone else's house off. Depends on how much the person wants to save etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyBilly Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 It is a lost generation. And there are some unpalatable facts that aren't being put to the electorate: The incredibly generous pensions a significant number of boomers are receiving - they weren't earned. They are all in deficit (almost £2 trillion in private pensions) and as such what is taking place now is a mind boggling cash transfer from the young to the retired. It all has to be paid for, who do they think are paying the pensions, their contributions? Political suicide to touch pensioners ("triple lock guarantee"), the young don't vote and consequently they have surrendered the right to protest about working longer for less to support those who retired sooner for more. Simple facts - society never has been able to afford to pay people to retire for 30-40 years when they've only worked for 30-40 years. The young will find that out. Governments have made social promises they can't keep - clever accounting to show the U.K's debt at £1.5 trillion doesn't negate the fact if you throw in unfunded liabilities then its at least £5.5 trillion. People seem to think this can go on forever, they'll be in for a nasty surprise when they find out that the rest of the world won't continue to accept our IOUs in worthless currency anymore. The West has had a free ride since 1980 increasing its living standards off the back of the developing world, flogging its debt and inflating away its liabilities...and in the last and critical phase of this cycle likely defaulting (next step). Who is gullible enough to believe this can go on for another 40 years when its bloody obvious China, India and Asia are the future. Europe is too busy passing legislation on curved bananas to notice that its a declining power. I'm sorry to say, if you aren't skilled and mobile and you are living in the West then the next half a century is going to be difficult - living standards will go down in this part of the world, not up. Change happens, the trends are set in motion and once set in, rarely reverse. As I've mentioned in the finance thread, as the West's finances continue to spiral out of control, interest rates have been forced down to buy time and convince themselves and the electorate the aforementioned isn't happening. So at a time when most people acquire assets (when they're young), they are taking on huge debts off the back of superficial monetary policy. At just the wrong time. They are buying pumped up assets with less secure employment at record low interest rates. Historically it has always ended badly! Interest rates will rise and when they do they will rise violently by a market shock. Not 0.25% increases by the BoE in some controlled phased lift off - yeah likely, who believes that! Nothing in the markets happens gradually, it could be a bond crisis when people dump their bonds and government in desperation has to start offering higher rates to get buyers. The young are as much victims of current circumstance but on the debt front its looking bad for them I'm afraid. All at a time when globalism, natural shifts in global economics and automation are going to shake up the jobs market like never seen above. I'm alright though Jack so all is good . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterRam Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34674276 Prospects for young people 'have worsened' says report Most people are being paid less per hour in real terms than five years ago, I bet my left testicle that Mr Cameron will have that edited within the next 30-40 mins, next he will be telling me unemployement is dropping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 On 28/10/2015, 11:46:46, AnimalisaRam said: I failed to see then, and still do, how raising university fees helps anyone. All it did was put a few people off going. You answer this question yourself already! On 28/10/2015, 11:46:46, AnimalisaRam said: The bigger concern with the 'lost generation' is that going to university is the norm, while developing tradesman skills - plumbers/plasterers/sparks etc etc - is seen to be a lower 'dirty' form of work. It's providing a vacuum of these necessary trades, which in my eyes is contributing to what we see in the housing market. I'm a second year student of History, so I guess I'm probably one of those people not doing the 'dirty' work. I don't see those trademan jobs as 'lower' or 'dirty'. I just wouldn't be very good at it. The real 'problem' if there is one is that more and more people are completely useless at that sort of stuff We are the Homo Interneticus generation where pretty much everyone knows their way around a computer, but wouldn't make it past the first hour in a job as an electrician or a plumber. Maybe I'm just selfish and want the moon on a stick asking for a cushy desk job where I don't have to get my hands dirty but I don't see it that way. If I thought I would be any good at a trade, I'd do it. I considered for a time becoming an electrician when I left school, but fact of the matter is that it isn't for me. I like to think that my skills lie in something more analytical. Toiling by brain rather than hand. But then who doesn't think that? Everyone thinks they're the pinnacle of intelligence these days. I can only hope that my history degree, should I achieve it, will demonstrate other skills. I think there is more that is transferable from academia into the real world than you give credit for. The problem, if there is one, is that too many people either don't finish their degrees or they study one of these kind of "Advanced Drawing" mickey mouse courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 5 minutes ago, Tombo said: You answer this question yourself already! I'm a second year student of History, so I guess I'm probably one of those people not doing the 'dirty' work. I don't see those trademan jobs as 'lower' or 'dirty'. I just wouldn't be very good at it. The real 'problem' if there is one is that more and more people are completely useless at that sort of stuff We are the Homo Interneticus generation where pretty much everyone knows their way around a computer, but wouldn't make it past the first hour in a job as an electrician or a plumber. Maybe I'm just selfish and want the moon on a stick asking for a cushy desk job where I don't have to get my hands dirty but I don't see it that way. If I thought I would be any good at a trade, I'd do it. I considered for a time becoming an electrician when I left school, but fact of the matter is that it isn't for me. I like to think that my skills lie in something more analytical. Toiling by brain rather than hand. But then who doesn't think that? Everyone thinks they're the pinnacle of intelligence these days. I can only hope that my history degree, should I achieve it, will demonstrate other skills. I think there is more that is transferable from academia into the real world than you give credit for. The problem, if there is one, is that too many people either don't finish their degrees or they study one of these kind of "Advanced Drawing" mickey mouse courses. I'm not criticising those that, like you, choose not to go into those trades because it doesn't suit your strengths. Its those who end up at uni doing a course they don't really have an interest in, because they either didn't get the grades for the subject they wanted, or don't know what they want to do, so end up doing mickey mouse courses. It's a massive decision at the tender age of 18. In my experience, my main grumble was the lack of support from my 6th form, and my girlfriend said near enough the same (she's 2.5 years younger) about her college - it was either university or they didn't want to know. IMO, schools are failing those who aren't as academic, where the more hands-on jobs suits them more than having to bury their nose in a textbook. Best of luck with your history degree - we need people looking into the past so that we don't repeat our forebears' mistakes, and that's the sort of subject area that leads to teaching/lecturing - vital services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 40 minutes ago, AnimalisaRam said: In my experience, my main grumble was the lack of support from my 6th form, and my girlfriend said near enough the same (she's 2.5 years younger) about her college - it was either university or they didn't want to know. IMO, schools are failing those who aren't as academic, where the more hands-on jobs suits them more than having to bury their nose in a textbook. Tell you what though, that's an important point. I originally went to college for my A-Levels with no intention of going to Uni. This was a genuine conversation I had with a careers advisor. Her: Have you seen any University prospectuses yet or been to any open days? Me: I don't think University is for me, I don't really have the focus to commit to something like that. Her: So why are you at college if you're not going to University? Yeah that's right, she was living under the delusion that there's literally no point in doing A-Levels if you're not going to Uni. That was her philosophy. I failed my exams that year but the following year I grew up a lot, found a lot more focus and determination, dragged myself out of this moody teenage angst crap I was carrying around with me, discovered I really loved History, and then passed the retakes and went to Uni. No thanks to any support or advice I received from my college. Got much better advice from my A2 History teacher as it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyBilly Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 My advice to anyone going to uni now is to research niche fields beforehand, do a generic degree perhaps (like chemical engineering or physics) but start tailoring yourself and experiences to a particular field within a field. All the people in the world who do my job can fit in 1 medium sized conference room, I know that because we regularly convene! It certainly makes sense to be more creative when so many people go to uni these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loughboroughRAM Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 11 hours ago, Tombo said: Tell you what though, that's an important point. I originally went to college for my A-Levels with no intention of going to Uni. This was a genuine conversation I had with a careers advisor. Her: Have you seen any University prospectuses yet or been to any open days? Me: I don't think University is for me, I don't really have the focus to commit to something like that. Her: So why are you at college if you're not going to University? Yeah that's right, she was living under the delusion that there's literally no point in doing A-Levels if you're not going to Uni. That was her philosophy. I failed my exams that year but the following year I grew up a lot, found a lot more focus and determination, dragged myself out of this moody teenage angst crap I was carrying around with me, discovered I really loved History, and then passed the retakes and went to Uni. No thanks to any support or advice I received from my college. Got much better advice from my A2 History teacher as it happens. Kinda reminds me a bit of my school on A-Levels results day. I went to a decent grammar school which had quite high expectancies when it came to results day it was quite a big thing. As per the local paper was there to report on stuff and the headmaster (bit of a tool) literally said 'Only people achieving all A's or above' could be in the photo. I kindly pointed out to him that whilst anyone achieving all A's or better is impressive, surely a student expected to get mostly C's etc but who actually exceeded expectations should be more of a success story than someone who expected straight A's and got them? Really pissed me off cos I worked my tits off to pull my grades up a whole grade in every subject to achieve something most of my teachers thought I might not be able to do. It's a shame that most schools are elitist in this way, only caring about the %age of people achieving certain grades then going off to university. Like yourself Tombo I don't look down on those learning a trade as it is not something my skillset would enable me to do, and I also feel they play a valuable role in society. Like my mum always said, 'The world needs electricians/plumbers/gas men (or women)'. Too many people nowadays see university as the be all and end all and those that choose not to enter higher education are in some way inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 On 28/10/2015 19:04:09, SillyBilly said: It is a lost generation. And there are some unpalatable facts that aren't being put to the electorate: The incredibly generous pensions a significant number of boomers are receiving - they weren't earned. They are all in deficit (almost £2 trillion in private pensions) and as such what is taking place now is a mind boggling cash transfer from the young to the retired. It all has to be paid for, who do they think are paying the pensions, their contributions? Political suicide to touch pensioners ("triple lock guarantee"), the young don't vote and consequently they have surrendered the right to protest about working longer for less to support those who retired sooner for more. Simple facts - society never has been able to afford to pay people to retire for 30-40 years when they've only worked for 30-40 years. The young will find that out. Governments have made social promises they can't keep - clever accounting to show the U.K's debt at £1.5 trillion doesn't negate the fact if you throw in unfunded liabilities then its at least £5.5 trillion. People seem to think this can go on forever, they'll be in for a nasty surprise when they find out that the rest of the world won't continue to accept our IOUs in worthless currency anymore. The West has had a free ride since 1980 increasing its living standards off the back of the developing world, flogging its debt and inflating away its liabilities...and in the last and critical phase of this cycle likely defaulting (next step). Who is gullible enough to believe this can go on for another 40 years when its bloody obvious China, India and Asia are the future. Europe is too busy passing legislation on curved bananas to notice that its a declining power. I'm sorry to say, if you aren't skilled and mobile and you are living in the West then the next half a century is going to be difficult - living standards will go down in this part of the world, not up. Change happens, the trends are set in motion and once set in, rarely reverse. As I've mentioned in the finance thread, as the West's finances continue to spiral out of control, interest rates have been forced down to buy time and convince themselves and the electorate the aforementioned isn't happening. So at a time when most people acquire assets (when they're young), they are taking on huge debts off the back of superficial monetary policy. At just the wrong time. They are buying pumped up assets with less secure employment at record low interest rates. Historically it has always ended badly! Interest rates will rise and when they do they will rise violently by a market shock. Not 0.25% increases by the BoE in some controlled phased lift off - yeah likely, who believes that! Nothing in the markets happens gradually, it could be a bond crisis when people dump their bonds and government in desperation has to start offering higher rates to get buyers. The young are as much victims of current circumstance but on the debt front its looking bad for them I'm afraid. All at a time when globalism, natural shifts in global economics and automation are going to shake up the jobs market like never seen above. I'm alright though Jack so all is good . I don't think I've ever read such a pile of steaming bullshit in my life - and I have read plenty of your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterRam Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 to have your pension income taxed is a bit rough which is basically a double taxation which is not only immoral but illegal, If you have worked for the majority of your life you deserve a comfortable retirement. you can have a standard state pension if your 65 and just entered the country, now that isn't right !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyBilly Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 4 hours ago, eddie said: I don't think I've ever read such a pile of steaming bullshit in my life - and I have read plenty of your posts. I did enjoy your thought provoking post on whether the young are getting a fair deal! How about just ignoring my BS posts and offering your own opinion (if I knew how to "ignore" your posts I would, I certainly don't reply to them), seems to me your only contributions on these threads is to post 1 line rebukes to me. By all means tear the post apart so others can see how wrong I am... And FWIW, yes...it is not true that 86% of final salary pension schemes are in deficit according to the PPF's latest report...yet the promises are being kept at the expense of less generous pensions to younger persons. Also, the UK's debt is entirely sustainable, ignore the fact the M1 money supply (pounds in circulation) has gone AWOL since 08 (this will have no severe repercussions in a few years!), interest rates have been at 0% for 7 years (again no credit bubble like 2007 will be created out of low % interest rates, Eddie says its BS!) and ignore the fact that China/Russia/Brazil are flogging over $100 billion a month of US and UK treasuries (again NO repercussions - we'll buy it all ourselves!) And of course asset prices such as houses at record levels of income to price are not over inflated so now will be a good time to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozza Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Bit off more than you can chew there , eddie , Billy is certainly not Silly .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Ram Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I dunno about that moz, he can't find the ignore facility, I use it most days, I tried to ignore meself once, it wouldn't let me. Seriously for a moment, by and large I like his contribution to the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I recently had some renovation work done on my offices. Plasterers, builders, joiners etc. We're getting a £200-£300 for half a days work! heres me renovating the office to make a new business where, if I'm lucky, I'll make £200-£300 a week. What the hell am I doing, I need to get me to a texhnical college quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValeRam Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 On 31 October 2015 12:39:08, LesterRam said: to have your pension income taxed is a bit rough which is basically a double taxation which is not only immoral but illegal, If you have worked for the majority of your life you deserve a comfortable retirement. you can have a standard state pension if your 65 and just entered the country, now that isn't right !! Its not double taxation. Your pension contributions are tax free (i.e. no tax is generated on the income used to pay into a pension) By contributing to a pension fund in effect all you are doing is deferring paying tax until you draw your pension after retirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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