Derby County v Middlesbrough

[Rich84]

Same again for me, but I'd like changes earlier if things not working.

With Weimann, Bent, possibly Dawkins on the bench - use (some of) them at 45 - 60 mins, or if we have lots of possession bring Christie on earlier than on Saturday.

[The_Sheriff]

So it's not a diamond it's a 4-4-2. But it's a 4-4-2 with Weimann in midfield. Great!

Its probably been 5 or 6 times over the past couple of months now I've explained the problem to people on here who've put wingers in diamonds and then not seen why that's a problem and I'm not sure I can be bothered to do it again really. A simple google search of the formation will give some details as to how it works. More width you say? Diamonds aren't wide, that's why they're diamonds. Lots of people seem to want their cake and eat it with diamonds - but like all formations it has drawbacks.

You're a bit touchy for someone who calls people a whatever it is you just called me. If you don't want people being sarcastic to you then don't say silly things?

If my suggestion to you sounds silly you could explain why it is silly in a more respectful way couldn't you? What good is it ripping into the idea and then being highly sarcastic trying to make people look stupid? So yes i did call you a sarcastic **** but you was being one!

The point i was getting at was a diamond with pace on the two 'sides' would help prevent getting out flanked that's why i put russell and ince in there. 

I'm not saying it will definitely work and it could be 'silly' as you put it leaving the middle of the park too open,but i also think the 4-3-3/4-5-1 has not worked because we are still in this division.

[MACKWORTHRAM]

Carson, Baird, Keogh, Shackell, Forsyth, Thorne, Hanson, Hendrick, Weimann, Ince, Martin.

Subs:-  Grant, Christie, Pearce, Dawkins, Bennett, Russell, Bent, 

I would put Bennett on the bench. Clement wont. But I would. Hes quick, hes direct, he scares defenders. Not saying hes the answer at all. But he is the last thing a full back wants to see when he is on his arse with 15 mins to go.

The midfield picks itself for this one. I thought Russell was off it on Saturday so I would give Weimann a go.

Midfield picks itself. I wouldnt start Hendrick because he offers nothing. Id play Dawkins. But I dont think Clement likes the look of him to be honest.

Good early test for us. 

 

[TobyWanKenobi]

After predicting the Charlton game correctly, (minus rams scorer of course) I'm going to for a Rams 1-2 Boro score line, with Bent to grab our goal, and this forum filled with people saying how well we played afterwards.

[mwram1973]

                                Carson

Baird             Keogh           Shackell           Fozzy

                               Thorne    

                 Hanson                Dawks

       Ince                                            Wiemann

                                Martin

PLEEEEEEAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEE Win, it's me Bothday tomorrow

 

[Sexydadbod]

I've changed my mind. I predicted that we are going to lose 2-0 but having dissected the teams I really think that we will win this or at the very least not lose. 

Great fact for all you guys: we still having lost a single league game that Thorne has played in, that's crazy.

Remember last year when we played boro at home it was only Hanson's second game if I remember correctly and we were forced to play Russell as the striker. A few Boro fans think that we still play the same way as last year, all through Martin. Hopefully the boro manager still thinks that because they will be in for a real surprise tommorow because Clement's teams and tactics are adaptable unlike Mac's. I think our defensive line is better and has more experience than theirs. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Ben Gibson injured for them? If so that is a massive loss for them.

If we play like we did in the second half against Charlton then I think that we will win. 

Clement may adopt the aggressive counter attacking style for tommorow because Boro struggled against teams like that last season like losing 3-0 away to Bournemouth, conceding 4 at fulham and losing the play off final. All of those teams had one thing in common, all of them played quickly and aggressively.

You can bet your mind that since the Charlton game, Clement has been working out the perfect tactics to use in this game because some may say that this is the "el classico" of the championship because both us and boro are the 2 best teams in the league on paper.

Put it this way, I'm more confident that we will beat or at the very least compete with Boro than I was last year because last year we had a number of injuries. 

[Sexydadbod]

Whatever the result I won't be concerned. Unless it's a Boro win by 4 or more goals which would shatter confidence. As Mourinho said last night, if you're 5 points behind with 5 games to go, that's a problem. But with 36 (or in our case 43) games to go, long way to go.

Absolutely there is a long way to go but I bet that Mourinho is livid that he is 5 points behind his rivals at this early stage. However, it's good to have that head start because even if you lose, you will still be at the top

[Sexydadbod]

                                Carson

Baird             Keogh           Shackell           Fozzy

                               Thorne    

                 Hanson                Dawks

       Ince                                            Wiemann

                                Martin

PLEEEEEEAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEE Win, it's me Bothday tomorrow

 

I'd choose this team

[Rampage]

Happy birthday mwram1973. If we beat Boro, I will be massively impressed. if we do not win then a draw would be nice. We have got some catching up to do but it all depends on taking chances.

[StringerBell]

If my suggestion to you sounds silly you could explain why it is silly in a more respectful way couldn't you? What good is it ripping into the idea and then being highly sarcastic trying to make people look stupid? So yes i did call you a sarcastic **** but you was being one!

The point i was getting at was a diamond with pace on the two 'sides' would help prevent getting out flanked that's why i put russell and ince in there. 

I'm not saying it will definitely work and it could be 'silly' as you put it leaving the middle of the park too open,but i also think the 4-3-3/4-5-1 has not worked because we are still in this division.

You called me a sarcastic **** because you thought I was being one and I was being sarcastic in the first place because you think we should only play one midfielder. You see that's what happens when you say silly things, socially you pay a price.

As I've said, I've explained several times now why it won't work and in quite a bit of depth but to cut a long story short picture what happens when Weimann loses the ball. One pass to their midfielder who will have acres of space to turn and drive at the defence. If Thorne goes to him their midfielder passes to the other midfielder (unless they're also only playing one midfielder but I doubt that would happen). So every single time we lose the ball and the opposition get the ball to their completely unopposed midfield player this will result in the opposition having a free run at our defence and most likely a goal scoring opportunity. Every single time. 

Midfield diamonds have a narrow midfield by definition to counteract the above. If you want a wide midfield play a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3/4-5-1.

[Idiakez]

I've changed my mind. I predicted that we are going to lose 2-0 but having dissected the teams I really think that we will win this or at the very least not lose. 

Great fact for all you guys: we still having lost a single league game that Thorne has played in, that's crazy.

Remember last year when we played boro at home it was only Hanson's second game if I remember correctly and we were forced to play Russell as the striker. A few Boro fans think that we still play the same way as last year, all through Martin. Hopefully the boro manager still thinks that because they will be in for a real surprise tommorow because Clement's teams and tactics are adaptable unlike Mac's. I think our defensive line is better and has more experience than theirs. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Ben Gibson injured for them? If so that is a massive loss for them.

If we play like we did in the second half against Charlton then I think that we will win. 

Clement may adopt the aggressive counter attacking style for tommorow because Boro struggled against teams like that last season like losing 3-0 away to Bournemouth, conceding 4 at fulham and losing the play off final. All of those teams had one thing in common, all of them played quickly and aggressively.

You can bet your mind that since the Charlton game, Clement has been working out the perfect tactics to use in this game because some may say that this is the "el classico" of the championship because both us and boro are the 2 best teams in the league on paper.

Put it this way, I'm more confident that we will beat or at the very least compete with Boro than I was last year because last year we had a number of injuries. 

We have, we lost twice when he was on loan to us. 2-1 away at Ipswich and 1-0 away at Boro. 

[eddie]

You called me a sarcastic **** because you thought I was being one and I was being sarcastic in the first place because you think we should only play one midfielder. You see that's what happens when you say silly things, socially you pay a price.

As I've said, I've explained several times now why it won't work and in quite a bit of depth but to cut a long story short picture what happens when Weimann loses the ball. One pass to their midfielder who will have acres of space to turn and drive at the defence. If Thorne goes to him their midfielder passes to the other midfielder (unless they're also only playing one midfielder but I doubt that would happen). So every single time we lose the ball and the opposition get the ball to their completely unopposed midfield player this will result in the opposition having a free run at our defence and most likely a goal scoring opportunity. Every single time. 

Midfield diamonds have a narrow midfield by definition to counteract the above. If you want a wide midfield play a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3/4-5-1.

You cannot assume that everyone reads every one of your posts. I don't, because basically when you've read one, you've read them all.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Papahet]

I'd take a draw right now.

can't see us winning at all with the confidence Boro have atm.

[StringerBell]

You cannot assume that everyone reads every one of your posts. I don't, because basically when you've read one, you've read them all.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Whereas yours are quite varied. There was nothing about you thinking Alan Nixon being full of **** there at all. You should tell us a few more times though just to make sure.

Also I don't think you've mentioned Occam's Razor today. You feeling alright? 

[Sexydadbod]

Think you should remove Hughes from this ha

[IronRam 140.6]

Rigid traditional formations should be taken with a pinch of salt. For me the back four picks themselves. It's the balance between midfield and attack is the key. Most of our mids and forwards can interchange between 2 and 3 postions. So its a question of how you distribute those 6 places, between offensive and defensive minded players.

Do you go with Thorne and Hendrick and Hanson. For a loosely 3 Defensive 3 offensive split or play Dawkins in for Hendrick or Hanson and go for a 2 to 4 split.

For me Boro will have a go at us, thus leaving more spacein behind than Charlton offered us. So a 2 to 4 split using Dawkins would be my choice if it were up to me.

 

But it ain't.

Over and out.

 

[The_Sheriff]

You called me a sarcastic **** because you thought I was being one and I was being sarcastic in the first place because you think we should only play one midfielder. You see that's what happens when you say silly things, socially you pay a price.

As I've said, I've explained several times now why it won't work and in quite a bit of depth but to cut a long story short picture what happens when Weimann loses the ball. One pass to their midfielder who will have acres of space to turn and drive at the defence. If Thorne goes to him their midfielder passes to the other midfielder (unless they're also only playing one midfielder but I doubt that would happen). So every single time we lose the ball and the opposition get the ball to their completely unopposed midfield player this will result in the opposition having a free run at our defence and most likely a goal scoring opportunity. Every single time. 

Midfield diamonds have a narrow midfield by definition to counteract the above. If you want a wide midfield play a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3/4-5-1.

See that's how you should get an opinion across, you have said the problem with my idea and that is fair enough.

I still think with your description of the issue with a wide diamons are ifs and buts which you can say in all systems: IF wiemann loses the ball IF thorne tracks one down the other is free etc etc, as you said all systems have weaknesses.

I for one would like to see us with a new system since the 4-3-3/4-5-1 is too defensive and asks too much of the wide players. You either leave your goalscorers out like bent and wiemann or you play them in an unatural position to them. Every Villa fan says wiemann is wasted out wide and bent is a goal scorer so we should be playing to those strengths as goals win games.

i accept my idea may seem too risky and i realise we played better with the usual 4-3-3/4-5-1 v charlton but we still failed to win and we have had 2 years playing that system and look where it has got us! 

 i'm not afraid to take an unpopular view and say playing that system is a step sidewides rather then forward.

[davenportram]

Think you should remove Hughes from this ha

put him in deliberately, I'm going to copy the survey so now all I have to do is add if we sign someone new rather than worry about injuries. Most people know someone is out injured.

[StringerBell]

See that's how you should get an opinion across, you have said the problem with my idea and that is fair enough.

I still think with your description of the issue with a wide diamons are ifs and buts which you can say in all systems: IF wiemann loses the ball IF thorne tracks one down the other is free etc etc, as you said all systems have weaknesses.

I for one would like to see us with a new system since the 4-3-3/4-5-1 is too defensive and asks too much of the wide players. You either leave your goalscorers out like bent and wiemann or you play them in an unatural position to them. Every Villa fan says wiemann is wasted out wide and bent is a goal scorer so we should be playing to those strengths as goals win games.

i accept my idea may seem too risky and i realise we played better with the usual 4-3-3/4-5-1 v charlton but we still failed to win and we have had 2 years playing that system and look where it has got us! 

 i'm not afraid to take an unpopular view and say playing that system is a step sidewides rather then forward.

I get what you're saying with the strikers. Darren Bent is a good striker and were not really using him. 

But just to be clear, your formation and lineup isn't risky its suicidal. If Weimann lost the ball? The laws of averages suggest a lot of our attacks are going to break down at some point. A defender will make a tackle and a quick look up, pass to one of the centre midfielders and all of a sudden we're in trouble. I'd say one of ther midfielders might get hold of a 50/50 but I don't know who on our team is supposed to be competing against that 50/50? If Thorne didn't challenge, he'd retreat and would keep himself between the ball and goal. But one simple pass to the side to a player playing in a plural midfield who is rushing past and he's out of the game.

Again, every time the opposition would get the ball they would run at our defence and have a shot or play a pass behind the defence. We're talking 50+ shots on target. So you can talk about manners all you like but your lineup is bonkers I'm afraid to say.

Can you think of one successful team that has played a diamond but a really wide diamond with wingers instead of midfielders? Maybe there is one but I'm not aware of them and they'd be defying every coaching manual going if there were. 

I have started to get mildly irritated if I'm honest by people putting wingers in diamond formations as their suggested teams. I'm sure someone else will do it before long but I don't quite know why anyone would proffer a formation they don't really understand. I've not got to grips with 3-4-3 yet, and I wouldn't suggest a Derby version of 3-4-3 until I'd done my homework. 

If you think I was rude then I am sorry and that was not my intention, my intention was to point out how daft your midfield-less formation was. I hope I've made it clear how daft I do think it is (very) and I think my words should reflect that. I would add that you're probably a bit easily offended in my book if you're letting a bit of mild sarcasm on a footy forum get to you but I'll endeavour to make a note of your response for future reference.

[RadioactiveWaste]

We never beat sodding boro anyway so rest the better ones and play the same team as portsmouth.......

 

 

OK, I think it'll be same team except Weiman in for JR, perhaps with Warnock in (Clement is a bit cautious so far) as well.

Be interesting to see if Hanson plays as a CDM with GT.