ronnieronalde Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 As for Clough getting more criticism than Jewell, I am yet to see anyone have a good word about the Jewell debacle, expect maybe the quality of his videos... There is/was a lot more to talk about with Clough but I would say his job here was widely appreciated as it should be. Had Clough only been give a year or two, I would understand the annoyance. I know that in my mind I allowed Clough an extra season because of his name. I could see what he was trying to do and I wanted that to happen but I never felt he could do it. I believe in all the romantic, fantasy malarkey but I had grown tired of it. He did the job initially required, but couldn't move us on to the next level. I fail to see why there is such a need for a fuss over that. Now he is doing well at Sheff United, good for him. I have never had an affiliation with ex-managers (much like ex girlfriends) so the wheel moves on. Mr Bond, I can't disagree with anything you've written there. I even agree that 5 years is a hell of a long time and that not many managers would have got that time. The only difference between me and most of you lot is I never lost the faith. I always saw that we were progressing. Maybe my measure or acceptance of progress was lower than anyone else's because of who he was. Remember though Bond that I'm talking about his career from a view that not many on here have, 30 years worth of watching, not four and a half. I watched the same thing happen at Burton where the fans turned on him after year 5 and started with the "he can't take us further" ********. I didn't agree then either and took a lot of **** for saying so. Roll forward 10 years, different club, same fans complaints. Momentum is a massive thing in football, I'm hoping that in two and a bit years time, both the Rams under Mac and the Blades under Clough are in the PL and those who slated him might begrudgingly admit he's not such a bad manager after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 My opinion is, for all those people saying Clough isn't doing a good job - it's coming across as slightly bitter, obviously just my opinion. You can only beat what is in front of you, and he is doing that and a very good rate too. He now has a better win percentage than Steve McClaren has here, so I'm not sure how you can argue that he isn't doing a good job. Regardless of their squad...etc This is going to be a very, very unpopular opinion. However, as a manager I don't think there is much between Clough and McClaren. I think we've improved the backroom staff by an incredible amount, and that has definitely showed. But in terms of the two managers I think they're very similar. I feel both clubs and managers have benefited from a change though, and I have no doubt Clough will go on to bigger and better things, as I expect McClaren will do. Maybe you've hit the nail on the head there. Clough's er... 'loyalty' (if it's not unfair to suggest that's what it is) meant he never did what was ultimately best for Derby County. His perceived refusal to ever improve the coaching setup ultimately cost him his job, and you'd have to say deservedly so. I spent at least 3 seasons saying that he's not covering all bases with the setup he had. Going from what has been said in public forums and what certain players have said, it's obvious that Rush had identified the coaching and scouting infrastructure was not good enough, and Nigel was given the opportunity to develop and adapt in a new setup but refused to do so. This would suggest that they acknowledged quality in Nigel himself. I'd have loved to have seen how Nigel would've worked with someone like Eric Steele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Teale Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Or you could flip that right on its head Emj and say that all those Clough threads for the last four years criticising his signings/tactics/treatment of players were just because of his name. Since he's gone. We've signed a non-league goalie - not a murmour We've signed a 33 year old full back who hasn't played for years. - not a squeak. We've signed loan players to replace our own but then kept them all on the bench, despite paying them a chunk of wedge - that's fine and good planning We've lost games we shouldn't have lost. - it's to be expected. We've drawn games we shouldn't have drawn - ah well, that's football. We've frozen out youngsters without giving them a chance. - they weren't good enough anyway. Compare that to the reaction when NC was here. Would you even be prepared to consider that If his name wasn't Clough and he hadn't played for Forest there's no way he'd have been slaughtered as much as he was. He gets more stick that Jewell and Davies combined depsite not leaving us in the **** anyway near as much as they did. That's purely down to his name. Tell me it's not just down to his name? We haven't moaned as much a for quite a simple reason, we have won a large majority of the games we have played and moved up from the bottom half to 3rd. Football is a about results. He wasn't slaughted as much as Jewell or Davies and to be fair billy actually got us promoted. The majority of people who wanted him out just thought we weren't really progressing under him and we never looked a top 6 side. Since he has left we have become one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Maybe you've hit the nail on the head there. Clough's er... 'loyalty' (if it's not unfair to suggest that's what it is) meant he never did what was ultimately best for Derby County. His perceived refusal to ever improve the coaching setup ultimately cost him his job, and you'd have to say deservedly so. I spent at least 3 seasons saying that he's not covering all bases with the setup he had. Going from what has been said in public forums and what certain players have said, it's obvious that Rush had identified the coaching and scouting infrastructure was not good enough, and Nigel was given the opportunity to develop and adapt in a new setup but refused to do so. This would suggest that they acknowledged quality in Nigel himself. I'd have loved to have seen how Nigel would've worked with someone like Eric Steele. If they acknowledged quality in Nigel then they must have see something that others didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 If they acknowledged quality in Nigel then they must have see something that others didn't. only an idiot cannot see any quality whatsoever in Nigel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 only an idiot cannot see any quality whatsoever in Nigel. It's time to draw the curtains on that thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 only an idiot cannot see any quality whatsoever in Nigel. you're pissed up or doped up right? You've spent the last 4 years slagging him off, telling us all that he is clueless and a vvank manager, that anybody with a different view is wrong because they "can't see what you do". Your tactical knowledge and supreme football experience made us all feel inferior to you and now you say only idiots cannot see his quality.....fffs mostyn, your giving me forum tourettes.........no extra f in there btw...(for fckin fcks sake).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbeard Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 FFS! Is this still going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 you're pissed up or doped up right? You've spent the last 4 years slagging him off, telling us all that he is clueless and a vvank manager, that anybody with a different view is wrong because they "can't see what you do". Your tactical knowledge and supreme football experience made us all feel inferior to you and now you say only idiots cannot see his quality.....fffs mostyn, your giving me forum tourettes.........no extra f in there btw...(for fckin fcks sake).. you clearly never actually read what I was writing then, cos I quite clearly said his coaching setup was the main problem and that the whole thing could improve if he addressed certain weak areas and had someone a bit more tactical alongside. The fact that he never addressed it made him clueless and ****, I suppose. The overall thing is that he's head of a department that is crap, so therefore he is judged as crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Sage will remember what you wrote Mostyn, he's got a photographic memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Sage will remember what you wrote Mostyn, he's got a photographic memory. Technically speaking it's called an Eidetic memory. I chose the curtains riposte as it amused me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 you're pissed up or doped up right? You've spent the last 4 years slagging him off, telling us all that he is clueless and a vvank manager, that anybody with a different view is wrong because they "can't see what you do". Your tactical knowledge and supreme football experience made us all feel inferior to you and now you say only idiots cannot see his quality.....fffs mostyn, your giving me forum tourettes.........no extra f in there btw...(for fckin fcks sake).. We all know Mostyn's comments about NC were far more vitriolic than he is now suggesting, but there's no point asking someone who only uses one eye to see the bigger picture, even if that eye sees things that other eyes don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Technically speaking it's called an Eidetic memory. I chose the curtains riposte as it amused me. We all know Mostyn's comments about NC were far more vitriolic than he is now suggesting, but there's no point asking someone who only uses one eye to see the bigger picture, even if that eye sees things that other eyes don't. are you suggesting that I never said the words "I would've preferred NC to improve his coaching setup so we can see how good he could possibly be"?? Are you also saying I never said "Management is made up of many attributes and most managers are lacking in something, this is where the coaching staff count"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't have to prove the earth is round. We've all seen the pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't have to prove the earth is round. We've all seen the pictures. no, you don't, but you could at least be honest and not selective. I'm not back-tracking regards Clough. I still believe he never put Derby first, so deserved to lose his job. He refused to adapt and underperformed. He had certain qualities, but simply, not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Any manager worth his own salt would attempt to exceed his remit. I doubt Billy was expected to get promotion in the season he got us up. This is a rank lack of ambition from Clough... Why are you so hung up on the budget. If the manager was good enough, after 5 years of wheeling and dealing, we should have a much better squad! Please tell me what Palace's budget what at the start of last season! Also, what was Billy's budget in his first few months?... well, we were relegation battling or midtable nobodies prior to Billy, we were the same under Jewell, and we are the same right now! So factually not much has got better. When people look back, what will be the highlight of Clough's tenure?... For what it's worth Clough won't be remembered as a bad manager. But I doubt he will be remembered with to much fondness either. You won't be able to point to any successes or failures. You won't remember him for Will Hughes simply cos you don't remember whichever manager gave Huddlestone his debut with any particular credit for it! Clough will be remembered as the bloke who babysat. Nothing has got worse under him, apart from the feeling of optimism, not too much has got better under him... People mention the academy, but I think that bubble will soon burst when people realise it's a pink elephant! Where's the next player? Why isn't he playing when we're short on bodies? After all, this is how Hughes and Hendrick were chucked in... the reason people get pissy about the whole top six thing, if it even is that, .... I'll digress a bit, Personally I don't put a league position on it. If we finished 20th, but all of our players were doing their best and it was their level, it'd be acceptable, not ideal, but acceptable. When I judge Derby, I ask if the players are at 7/10 of their ability. When I compare against other teams, I do it on ability and not on wages or transfer fees because they don't win games or guarantee quality....so for me, if the team was full of youth players and getting beat, people would accept it as that would be somewhat expected as young lads are learning the game. The criticism stems from the team not performing to it's abilities, not the fact that we aren't top of the league... That is the first page I looked at from the first thread I looked at pre Clough's sacking. You were incessant. This is my last word on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I love pink elephants Sage but can I have a white one? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Didn't win today. 10 wins and 1 draw. He's ducking ****, should be sacked at once and sent to manage the Grimsby under 7s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Any manager worth his own salt would attempt to exceed his remit. I doubt Billy was expected to get promotion in the season he got us up. This is a rank lack of ambition from Clough... Why are you so hung up on the budget. If the manager was good enough, after 5 years of wheeling and dealing, we should have a much better squad! Please tell me what Palace's budget what at the start of last season! Also, what was Billy's budget in his first few months?... well, we were relegation battling or midtable nobodies prior to Billy, we were the same under Jewell, and we are the same right now! So factually not much has got better. When people look back, what will be the highlight of Clough's tenure?... For what it's worth Clough won't be remembered as a bad manager. But I doubt he will be remembered with to much fondness either. You won't be able to point to any successes or failures. You won't remember him for Will Hughes simply cos you don't remember whichever manager gave Huddlestone his debut with any particular credit for it! Clough will be remembered as the bloke who babysat. Nothing has got worse under him, apart from the feeling of optimism, not too much has got better under him... People mention the academy, but I think that bubble will soon burst when people realise it's a pink elephant! Where's the next player? Why isn't he playing when we're short on bodies? After all, this is how Hughes and Hendrick were chucked in... the reason people get pissy about the whole top six thing, if it even is that, .... I'll digress a bit, Personally I don't put a league position on it. If we finished 20th, but all of our players were doing their best and it was their level, it'd be acceptable, not ideal, but acceptable. When I judge Derby, I ask if the players are at 7/10 of their ability. When I compare against other teams, I do it on ability and not on wages or transfer fees because they don't win games or guarantee quality....so for me, if the team was full of youth players and getting beat, people would accept it as that would be somewhat expected as young lads are learning the game. The criticism stems from the team not performing to it's abilities, not the fact that we aren't top of the league... That is the first page I looked at from the first thread I looked at pre Clough's sacking. You were incessant. This is my last word on the matter. Good, cos all you've done is confuse me. I don't know what your point is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Lost yesterday if you missed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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