Give Sammon a break

[Derbiean]

I wouldn't go as far as to say he was decent.

Still waiting to hear why Jacobs doesn't get booed when his crosses fail to get past the first man.

Strangely all of the people who think it is acceptable to boo a poor piece of play haven't responded to that question yet.

Indeed Jacobs was the worst player on the night for me closely followed by Bryson. Don't think the bandwagon has started yet for those 2...Sammon's started the moment the ********* (aka the media) bandied the "£1.2m" fee about, as Alex said to me that will be death of Sammon most probably.

[WilkoRam]

So for the "He does more for the team than score goals" arguement

 

Assists

Coutts - 8

Jacobs, Ward - 6

Bryson - 5

Hendrick, Sammon - 3

 

3 assists.  To be that high up the pitch and do all this good work he's doing and he gets 6 goals and 3 assists in 34 games (two of those as sub).

 

And he's scored 6 goals from 48 shots, 12.5% of his chances go in.  You can say he's getting chances at least but, in 16 games, Ward has had 53 shots and even Bryson has had 41. I know that doesn't tell the whole story as you can't see what those chances are like from just the numbers and I'm sure he 'gives defenders a hard time' etc, but call me old fashioned, I'd like my strikers to score goals and as a plus maybe create goals for others.  And don't try telling me his off the ball work is creating chances for others, because he isn't.

 

We have used the fewest amount of players in the league this season.  That's not because we have a really small squad, it's because, when players like Sammon could do with a bit of time out and recharging etc we don't do it as we loan out all our other strikers and then bring in half fit ones from elsewhere.  Why are Robinson (8 goals) and even Tyson (4 goals) out on loan when we need to make things fresher?  I'm not saying either Robinson or Tyson are lethal strikers who would solve our problems but Nigel signed them and they score more goals to game than Sammon so why are they out on loan giving us little to no options in terms of changing things.  It's not even fair on Sammon, he could do with a game or two away but can't.

[WoollyJumper]

So for the "He does more for the team than score goals" arguement

 

Assists

Coutts - 8

Jacobs, Ward - 6

Bryson - 5

Hendrick, Sammon - 3

 

3 assists.  To be that high up the pitch and do all this good work he's doing and he gets 6 goals and 3 assists in 34 games (two of those as sub).

 

And he's scored 6 goals from 48 shots, 12.5% of his chances go in.  You can say he's getting chances at least but, in 16 games, Ward has had 53 shots and even Bryson has had 41. I know that doesn't tell the whole story as you can't see what those chances are like from just the numbers and I'm sure he 'gives defenders a hard time' etc, but call me old fashioned, I'd like my strikers to score goals and as a plus maybe create goals for others.  And don't try telling me his off the ball work is creating chances for others, because he isn't.

 

We have used the fewest amount of players in the league this season.  That's not because we have a really small squad, it's because, when players like Sammon could do with a bit of time out and recharging etc we don't do it as we loan out all our other strikers and then bring in half fit ones from elsewhere.  Why are Robinson (8 goals) and even Tyson (4 goals) out on loan when we need to make things fresher?  I'm not saying either Robinson or Tyson are lethal strikers who would solve our problems but Nigel signed them and they score more goals to game than Sammon so why are they out on loan giving us little to no options in terms of changing things.  It's not even fair on Sammon, he could do with a game or two away but can't.

You may have answered your own question. Perhaps the reason/s that Robinson and Tyson are out on loan is because they are not lethal strikers and may not solve our problems, something I'm sure Clough would have hoped they could when he signed them, and perhaps they are being groomed to be moved on.

[Albert]

So for the "He does more for the team than score goals" arguement

 

Assists

Coutts - 8

Jacobs, Ward - 6

Bryson - 5

Hendrick, Sammon - 3

 

3 assists.  To be that high up the pitch and do all this good work he's doing and he gets 6 goals and 3 assists in 34 games (two of those as sub).

 

And he's scored 6 goals from 48 shots, 12.5% of his chances go in.  You can say he's getting chances at least but, in 16 games, Ward has had 53 shots and even Bryson has had 41. I know that doesn't tell the whole story as you can't see what those chances are like from just the numbers and I'm sure he 'gives defenders a hard time' etc, but call me old fashioned, I'd like my strikers to score goals and as a plus maybe create goals for others.  And don't try telling me his off the ball work is creating chances for others, because he isn't.

 

We have used the fewest amount of players in the league this season.  That's not because we have a really small squad, it's because, when players like Sammon could do with a bit of time out and recharging etc we don't do it as we loan out all our other strikers and then bring in half fit ones from elsewhere.  Why are Robinson (8 goals) and even Tyson (4 goals) out on loan when we need to make things fresher?  I'm not saying either Robinson or Tyson are lethal strikers who would solve our problems but Nigel signed them and they score more goals to game than Sammon so why are they out on loan giving us little to no options in terms of changing things.  It's not even fair on Sammon, he could do with a game or two away but can't.

Assists never tell the full story. They can be a measure of a good final ball, but ultimately the second to last pass can be just as important. For this reason I've always been a tad annoyed that statistics aren't kept on Secondary Assists, but that's a debate for another time.

Theo and Tyson are options as strikers, but they aren't going to be able to do anything along side Ward. You have to consider more than just a place in the XI in cases like this.

I'd also mention that Sammon this season has already scored as many as this seasons current leading scorer scored last season.

[WilkoRam]

Assists never tell the full story. They can be a measure of a good final ball, but ultimately the second to last pass can be just as important. For this reason I've always been a tad annoyed that statistics aren't kept on Secondary Assists, but that's a debate for another time.Theo and Tyson are options as strikers, but they aren't going to be able to do anything along side Ward. You have to consider more than just a place in the XI in cases like this.I'd also mention that Sammon this season has already scored as many as this seasons current leading scorer scored last season.

I agree that assists don't tell the full story, an assist can be attributed to a lot of things. It could be a missed shot that someone else turns in, and easy pass, it could cannon off the player and fall in front of a team mate. Whereas the ball before it to create that initial chance could have been a sublime defence splitter and there's no assist count for that player. Stats do not paint the full picture and only your eyes can see everything a player contributes. It's just a bit of additional info seeing as there are two extremes on here for Sammon, those who won't have a bad word said against him and those who have nothing good to say about him.

As for Tyson and Robinson, they both offer a different option up front, a plan B as it were. All this talk that Sammon is a focal point, he bullies defenders, etc. that doesn't work a lot of the time and maybe a striker with pace, someone playing on the defenders shoulder, or running at the defence from deeper could be introduced, give the defence something different to think about. A player to get in the box a bit more and be there to get on the end of things.

And yes Albert I know that stat, everyone knows that stat, you've put it on three or four different threads now. You keep saying it like it proves Sammon will be good at some point. He may become good, he may not. What Murray did last season means jack. Bergkamp couldn't buy a goal when he first arrived at Arsenal and hadn't done that well at Inter, he became a legend who's having a statue erected at the ground. Bale was a Spurs jinx, couldn't win with him in the team, now he's one of the hottest properties in Europe. So time can change things but for those exceptions there's the pages and pages of players who were poor in their first season and low and behold they were poor in the next one as well. Hopefully Sammon will be an exception but wheeling out a stat on Murray every time there's criticism of Sammon won't make it so. (And that comes from means I love stats)

And WoollyJumper mate. Sammon isn't exactly proving to be a lethal striker, Robinson was more lethal than he was, odd he's now out on loan and Sammon in the starting XI game after game with no options to mix it up,you know bring on a bit of pace to test the oppo's tired legs etc.

[WilkoRam]

Oh and one other thing about the comparison to Murray. As you have pointed out in the past Albert, you can't focus on one stat without taking in the rest of the story. You keep banging on about Murray only scoring 6 in his first season for Palace but fail to appreciate that Murray was scoring for Brighton before that whereas Sammon has only once got into double figures for a season, that was 15 goals for Kilmarnock before he left for Wigan. Before that the most he had mustered up was 7 in a season. So where Murray may well have scored 6 in his first season at Palace, he had shown he had it in him to score prior to that.

[WoollyJumper]

You do realise I'm pro-clough?

 

You'll actually find I'm referring to Commons and Hulse talking about Cloughs poor man management when they left, the only reason I'd bring it up. And the situation with Cywka? Doesn't take a genius (or someone over the age of 16) to see that Clough can be a stubborn bar steward too. I'm inclined to believe that he'll play Sammon as he believes he has to get his moneys worth and prove he's a good signing. He'll not want to play with two smaller strikers too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also have a lot of experience in man management, on both Football Manager and fifa where I have won multiple titles with a variety of clubs over consecutive years (all on Legendary or World Class). Who looks a fool now, eh?

 

I'm not questioning where your allegiance lies.

 

I'd like to know how you know about Cloughs man management skills. Are you privvy to what goes on inside the club?

[ronnieronalde]

So for the "He does more for the team than score goals" arguement

 

Assists

Coutts - 8

Jacobs, Ward - 6

Bryson - 5

Hendrick, Sammon - 3

 

3 assists.  To be that high up the pitch and do all this good work he's doing and he gets 6 goals and 3 assists in 34 games (two of those as sub).

 

And he's scored 6 goals from 48 shots, 12.5% of his chances go in.  You can say he's getting chances at least but, in 16 games, Ward has had 53 shots and even Bryson has had 41. I know that doesn't tell the whole story as you can't see what those chances are like from just the numbers and I'm sure he 'gives defenders a hard time' etc, but call me old fashioned, I'd like my strikers to score goals and as a plus maybe create goals for others.  And don't try telling me his off the ball work is creating chances for others, because he isn't.

 

We have used the fewest amount of players in the league this season.  That's not because we have a really small squad, it's because, when players like Sammon could do with a bit of time out and recharging etc we don't do it as we loan out all our other strikers and then bring in half fit ones from elsewhere.  Why are Robinson (8 goals) and even Tyson (4 goals) out on loan when we need to make things fresher?  I'm not saying either Robinson or Tyson are lethal strikers who would solve our problems but Nigel signed them and they score more goals to game than Sammon so why are they out on loan giving us little to no options in terms of changing things.  It's not even fair on Sammon, he could do with a game or two away but can't.

 

Both Nathan Tyson and Theo Robinson ASKED to go out on loan. Would you keep them around after that?

 

I understand they weren't starting regularly but that doesn't stop them both from sitting on the bench and taking their chances when they come.

 

I don't know how you feel about things like that but if someone comes to me and tells me they want to leave I let them go.

 

Once they've asked to go out their mind is elsewhere.

 

I didn't see a single quote about us looking at the loan market until they asked to go out, in fact I heard and read exactly the opposite. We're happy with the squad and we'll go with what we've got. Nothing about looking to shift Theo or Tsyon out in January.

[Duffield Ram]

So you know that Nathan and Theo asked to go for definate? IMO There is a massive difference between saying "boss I want to get more game time and want to play" and "boss i want to leave Derby"

 

Who knows what was said, but one thing we can alll be sure of Nigel is not one for changing his mind! Favourites are favourites!!!!

[WilkoRam]

And just to add if they were getting used and giving Sammon a rest, a bit of a break and maybe they were getting game time with us do you think they'd ask to leave for first team football. As I understand it that's why they wanted to go not due to a lack of commitment or a desire to leave Derby but to get some game time which for some reason wasn't happening here. I'm not saying they should have been starting XI but fresh legs, especially when they're quick, would have been useful in games and they were rarely used.

[ronnieronalde]

See it's that kind of post that just can't be debated. He has his favourites?

 

Of course he has his favourites, they''re called his first choice 11. Every manager in the world has them. (unless they're managing a futsal team)

 

I read quotes and I watched interviews. It's all I can do. I'll try to see if I can find anything from either of them saying they were asked to leave.

 

In both cases as far I remember there was a quote saying that Nathan asked to go out to get more game time and that Theo asked to go out to get more game time.

 

I don't know what Clough's exact response was or how they phrased the question. All I know is that both of them asked to go according to any source I've seen.

 

So either Clough is lying or they asked to go out. The way things are on here right now I'm expecting someone to come and say he's lying.

 

I'm absolutely gobsmacked that the two players Clough took so much stick about signing and then standing by are the ones we're now using to hammer him for letting them go out.

[Albert]

See it's that kind of post that just can't be debated. He has his favourites?

 

Of course he has his favourites, they''re called his first choice 11. Every manager in the world has them. (unless they're managing a futsal team)

 

I read quotes and I watched interviews. It's all I can do. I'll try to see if I can find anything from either of them saying they were asked to leave.

 

In both cases as far I remember there was a quote saying that Nathan asked to go out to get more game time and that Theo asked to go out to get more game time.

 

I don't know what Clough's exact response was or how they phrased the question. All I know is that both of them asked to go according to any source I've seen.

 

So either Clough is lying or they asked to go out. The way things are on here right now I'm expecting someone to come and say he's lying.

 

I'm absolutely gobsmacked that the two players Clough took so much stick about signing and then standing by are the ones we're now using to hammer him for letting them go out.

Players are always better after they leave. If we sold Sammon in the summer for £1 mil people would bang on all season about how "we hadn't replaced him", regardless of what happens.

[sheeponacid]

Players are always better after they leave. If we sold Sammon in the summer for £1 mil people would bang on all season about how "we hadn't replaced him", regardless of what happens.

[uttoxram75]

And just to add if they were getting used and giving Sammon a rest, a bit of a break and maybe they were getting game time with us do you think they'd ask to leave for first team football. As I understand it that's why they wanted to go not due to a lack of commitment or a desire to leave Derby but to get some game time which for some reason wasn't happening here. I'm not saying they should have been starting XI but fresh legs, especially when they're quick, would have been useful in games and they were rarely used.

Its a valid point wilko and one no doubt that will be used against the next manager as well. 

[ChaddesdenRam]

We are gonna sign Martin and Waghorn and sell Tyson Doyle and Robinson.

Then we will have

Martin

Waghorn

Ward

Sammon

Bennett

Not in that order of selection or ability just those players.

I think that is better than

Sammon

Robinson

Ward

Tyson

Bennett

Doyle

[sheeponacid]

Players are always better after they leave. If we sold Sammon in the summer for £1 mil people would bang on all season about how "we hadn't replaced him", regardless of what happens.

Have to disagree Albert, if we sold Sammon for a million quid in the summer, all people would be banging on about, is that miracles do happen....getting a million for Sammon would be akin to the, feeding of the 5 thousand..

[sheeponacid]

Forgot to say I do actually think Sammon is a great striker, he appears to be on strike, almost always, when it comes to putting in a goal scoring shift..

[Albert]

Have to disagree Albert, if we sold Sammon for a million quid in the summer, all people would be banging on about, is that miracles do happen....getting a million for Sammon would be akin to the, feeding of the 5 thousand..

People even were talking about wanting Varney back at one point, and we got £750k and some loan fees out of him, that was miracle work from the club.

[Albert]

We are gonna sign Martin and Waghorn and sell Tyson Doyle and Robinson.

Then we will have

Martin

Waghorn

Ward

Sammon

Bennett

Not in that order of selection or ability just those players.

I think that is better than

Sammon

Robinson

Ward

Tyson

Bennett

Doyle

I'd love to see Waghorn here, but I don't see it happening.

[Duffield Ram]

Agreed Albert, that was some good business. He doesnt look to have done anything since the first few months at Blackpool! He looked awful against Palace.