ramblur Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 As far as I am aware Gibson and Whelan both still own their respective clubs and could therefore regain all of their input through the sale of the club? Although Doughty probably did write off a lot of his debt was it not reported that the Kuwaitis still had to pay a large amount to his estate? I think that the 3 mentioned would be prepared (were,in the case of ND) to pump money in a lot longer (and be prepared to lose it) than non fan owners.Although Gibson may get to the Prem,he would be unlikely to cash in his chips.He didn't last time.To me,the essence of fan owners is that they're prepared to lose money financially supporting/subsidising clubs they love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I think that the 3 mentioned would be prepared (were,in the case of ND) to pump money in a lot longer (and be prepared to lose it) than non fan owners.Although Gibson may get to the Prem,he would be unlikely to cash in his chips.He didn't last time.To me,the essence of fan owners is that they're prepared to lose money financially supporting/subsidising clubs they love. That can be very dangerous though as Lionel Pickering showed us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 That can be very dangerous though as Lionel Pickering showed us! Yeh,but again with Lionel he was funding a club he loved.Shame for him it turned out the way it did.He'd be a good candidate for stand naming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Yeh,but again with Lionel he was funding a club he loved.Shame for him it turned out the way it did.He'd be a good candidate for stand naming. Agree and disagree with that (if thats possible) a true Derby fan who's blind love nearly sent us to the wall and left us in the clutches of the 3 amigos. Gave us 12 great years but not knowing when to stop put us perilously close to going out of business! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Agree and disagree with that (if thats possible) a true Derby fan who's blind love nearly sent us to the wall and left us in the clutches of the 3 amigos. Gave us 12 great years but not knowing when to stop put us perilously close to going out of business! Mind you,he did rather rescue us in the first place. ......and he gave us some good times-who knows,we might never again have tasted the Prem without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Mind you,he did rather rescue us in the first place. Hence the agreement and disagreement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 In such an average division if any owners or backers had sense they'd throw alot of money at promotion at the first few attempts and get up to the PL.. A $15mill investment in the playing squad in the NPC basically garauntees a top 6 spot.. It's then upto having the right manager that can finish the job.. It makes so much more sense than sitting here losing money year after year expecting a miracle.. There isn't any money to be made outside the PL, I doubt there is a single club outside the PL recording profits.. Like has already been mentioned and a really good point made, there isn't any difference between losing $30mill in 2 years than losing $7mill a year consecutively.. And once in the PL, like Reading for example, moderate spending can generate lower expenditures and a greater squad prepared to get promoted should they be relegated.. As a conclusion I have no idea what our owners/backers are trying to achieve.. Are they after a miracle promotion? Are they after small spending each summer and fluke season? It would help if they had the correct staff in place if they're looking for a miralce.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ramblur - although dcfc is a business I still see football as a different type. 50 million makes for a good headline figure but fans care about investment for signings and wages. They don't realise 16 mill went to the old owners to buy the club and/or stadium. A lot of owners in this country have put their own money in to finance purchases, and don't expect it back. What have our owners contributed on this point? At the time of takeover and in a few articles that have cropped up since, it has been intimated that GSE paid $100m (roughly £50m at the time) to buy the club. Despite it being pataently untrue (GSE didn't but anything and the investment group paid only c£16m), I think lots of fans still believe this. It is true that GSE didn't actually state these figures publicly, but they did allow such articles to go unchallenged, despite those articles often featuring interviews with senior staff and appearing on the GSE corporate website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 You can still be in profit despite being in debt. Both utd and arsenal made a profit, the other two are beyond hope, but are as you say financed by some big backers. Chelsea reported a profit last year. Also, the Sky money has gone up a lot from this season. It is possible to make a loss in the Premier League, but crucially, it is also possible to make a profit - which doesn't appear to be the case in the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Debt now £34m according to the DET - no clarification on spilt between 'internal' and 'external' loans, and no mention of interest/repayment. Surely now people will cease with the 'GSE have paid off the debts' comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 It dunna matter what the attendance is I can never get a fookin pint of bitter at half time in the East Stand 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' /> u need to get a fake id Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 At the time of takeover and in a few articles that have cropped up since, it has been intimated that GSE paid $100m (roughly £50m at the time) to buy the club. Despite it being pataently untrue (GSE didn't but anything and the investment group paid only c£16m), I think lots of fans still believe this. It is true that GSE didn't actually state these figures publicly, but they did allow such articles to go unchallenged, despite those articles often featuring interviews with senior staff and appearing on the GSE corporate website. I'm sure Appleby quoted it, or it was quoted by an interviewer and he didn't challenge it. It must have come from Appleby in any case as it has been quoted many times. The way I see it is that the investors from the outset agreed to put in an amount to purchase the club, believed to be around £16m, and at the time of takeover scheduled a series of further cash injections over the following 4 years, which we now think total around £50m including the original purchase price, hence his statement at the start (and reinforced again by Sam Rush last week) of a£50m investment. The way the original investment was structured means any further investment, which we're seeing now to meet running costs, would have to be in the form of loans, as the investment in the club itself was rigidly structured from the beginning. That's my take on it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 In such an average division if any owners or backers had sense they'd throw alot of money at promotion at the first few attempts and get up to the PL.. A $15mill investment in the playing squad in the NPC basically garauntees a top 6 spot.. It's then upto having the right manager that can finish the job.. It makes so much more sense than sitting here losing money year after year expecting a miracle.. There isn't any money to be made outside the PL, I doubt there is a single club outside the PL recording profits.. Like has already been mentioned and a really good point made, there isn't any difference between losing $30mill in 2 years than losing $7mill a year consecutively.. And once in the PL, like Reading for example, moderate spending can generate lower expenditures and a greater squad prepared to get promoted should they be relegated.. As a conclusion I have no idea what our owners/backers are trying to achieve.. Are they after a miracle promotion? Are they after small spending each summer and fluke season? It would help if they had the correct staff in place if they're looking for a miralce.. Once bitten, twice shy as they say. They have tried the buying success route and failed so have completely changed their strategy. I guess they are now looking at the situation and thinking there are only two teams in this league who's owners will lavish money on their teams (Leicester and Cardiff) and both are looking good to be out of this league next season. This season has proved that the 3 teams coming down from the Premier League are guaranteed to be challenging purely on the back of the size if the parachute payments. As many have already said on here, it appears that you can't make profits outside of the Premier League and therefore teams are going to have to start making sure that their losses are sustainable. If all of the above points are factored together I guess the owners would be thinking we are in a pretty good position. I suppose its a bit like the FFP scenario but with different reasons. Just a thought on how the owners might be currently looking at the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Debt now £34m according to the DET - no clarification on spilt between 'internal' and 'external' loans, and no mention of interest/repayment. Surely now people will cease with the 'GSE have paid off the debts' comments. Well my guess is the debt is split roughly as follows:- Mortgage £15million (no point paying this off because of the favourable repayment terms) External loan secured against future season ticket income £4million Which leaves us with £15million which I am guessing is what is loans from the ownership group. So even though we have debt in the accounts, in effect it is owed to themselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silly Bharp Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 So let me get this straight... Derby are deep in financial ****, despite virtually their only comeback to us when talking about the future is 'we're well-run at least'? Good to know. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 If you look at all the fees we paid from Sav through to Varney,we obviously tried a 'Leicester' in 08/09 and have been paying for it ever since.Unfortunately Leicester,in general,appear to have recruited better players. It was a pretty half hearted attempt though. Excluding the initial January madness, I thought that Jewell's spending was pretty much funded by the sales of Earnshaw, Miller, Howard and Jones. To really do a 'Leicester' you would need to be prepared to put in huge amounts over a few years - if you're lucky you go up in year one, if you're unlucky it could take ten, but you will eventually go up. Of course the downside is a terrific cash burn, which only the richest owners could sustain - especially given that around one third of signings fail to deliver. However, it is not all negative. You're income will go up - fans remain interested and gates rise, you can justify more expensive tickets, you get more TV games so a greater income from that, you are percieved as more ambitious, so it is easier to attract better players and when you do go up you will probably have the makings of a Premier League squad, so you won't have to blow all your new found wealth buying a whole new team. Interstingly, I think that there is another model which seems to work. Drop into the League 1 and hoover up all the best players from the lower leagues - Leeds, Forest, Southampton, Norwich, Brighton & maybe Charlton were all 'giants' in that division. Their owners were prepared to put in the cash to make them the biggest fish in that pond, so they pretty much did a 'Leicester' on a smaller scale. When they came up they had momentum and were all pretty competitive . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 So let me get this straight... Derby are deep in financial ****, despite virtually their only comeback to us when talking about the future is 'we're well-run at least'? Good to know. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> LOL What makes you say we are in deep financial ****? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 So let me get this straight... Derby are deep in financial ****, despite virtually their only comeback to us when talking about the future is 'we're well-run at least'? Good to know. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> LOL You don't know your financial position yet - we're stable because we have owners prepared to put money in every year. If they didn't we'd be in trouble. Your owners have not proved themselves yet - will/can they continue to fund you? I'm not a GSE fan, but at least we won't have an untried American goalkeeper playing on Saturday. GSE leave the football side to the manager, will Fawasz? Personally I reckon he will be picking the team soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silly Bharp Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 What makes you say we are in deep financial ****? Nah you're right. £36m in debt and losing over 7mil a year is quite prudent actually. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Debt now £34m according to the DET - no clarification on spilt between 'internal' and 'external' loans, and no mention of interest/repayment. Surely now people will cease with the 'GSE have paid off the debts' comments. That indicates to me that the £5.8m signalled may have grown to £7m and be all further loan capital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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