Mark Burton: "Brian Clough would be turning in his grave" at Derby style of play

[Bris Vegas]

cracking league we've got.... first half today we played some nice stuff..... great game. listen to the interviews after.... buxton sammon and clough.... not showering each other with praise...just saying how good they feel as a team... 'honestly' mentioned (despite jacobs booking. didnt dive!) team work.... effort for each other. Without building a team of amazing footballers or whatever it is that we think we want, theyve started building a team that you can support properly. that play for each other like a team would and blah blah and so on,.... i dont mean to lecture.. but all the things you like about football that is missing from the modern game. f*ck the premiership. its not about being the best.... its about feeling a connection with you team. how many man utd fans can say that? or barca... or chelsea PARRRRRRRP! its class. clough is doing alright. championship is a really good league. Happiest season as a Ram for ages. they are a competitive team. the embarrasment is slowly oing away. and dont say you werent.... we all know we/you were. happy days ahead

I'm glad you feel that way..

But connection or not, those fans that watch their team get to see good football and quality players every week.. If they go to the ground, or if they pay to watch on the telly, at least they can come away knowing they've not wasted their money and they've been entertained.. Oh, and they've got to watch their team in Europe or lift a few trophies with memorable games against the big sides..

In 10 years time Derby fans will know deep down they've wasted thousands of pounds for what? A few wins over Forest, a record high position under NC of 9th in the NPC, a good cup run that consists of finally beating a L2 side before getting someone like Fulham in the 4th round and losing comfortably, and seeing a young player like Will Hughes for a season and a half before he's snapped up by someone like Wigan and a once in a blue moon recording an away victory that consists of scoring 3 goals or more..

It wasn't 15 years ago that we settled for being a top half PL side.. Then we settled for battling relegation in the PL.. Then we settled for pusing for promotion and perhaps a Yo-Yo side, then we settled for a playoff pushing side.. And now, we've settled for midtable with the only highlight in the season is beating either Forest or Leeds.. It's gotten to the point where a 1-1 draw at home to Blackburn is an excellent result and an average 3-2 win over Brum is the best game in years..

Looking on the Forest thread I thought they were all ****** for saying that we have no ambition and our highlight of the season is either beating them or watching them fail in the playoffs.. They seem to have a point..

[G STAR RAM]

It's irrelevant who he buys.. The guy could buy the Barcelona B team but his style is percentage football.. That means spending as little time in the defensive third as possible and cut out the midfield instead of using them to build attacks..

SAF once said the midfield is the most important part of the team.. It's used to protect and to build.. Clough uses it to protect nothing else..

Even when we had a team available with the likes of Cywka, Bueno, Bailey, Brayford, Commons etc. he completely abdandoned the use of the midfield to play this percentage survival football..

All he's done over the past 4 years is improve the squad bit by bit and change personnel and formations.. But the style remains the same..

If we make no use of the midfield why is Hughes such an important part of our team?

In your own words our fans are wetting themselves just because he manages to pass it to his own players (something you would never do about Barca players)

And why do a large number of our moves go through Brayford and Coutts?

Yes at times balls do go long to Sammon but to suggest our midfield is only there to protect is

[Philmycock]

Bris, stop saying 'we' in your posts, you obviously don't like Derby County FC as we are not Barcelonaesque. TV football 'fans' are dullards, you bore me :-p

[Animal is a Ram]

It wasn't 15 years ago that we settled for being a top half PL side.. Then we settled for battling relegation in the PL.. Then we settled for pusing for promotion and perhaps a Yo-Yo side, then we settled for a playoff pushing side.. And now, we've settled for midtable with the only highlight in the season is beating either Forest or Leeds.. It's gotten to the point where a 1-1 draw at home to Blackburn is an excellent result and an average 3-2 win over Brum is the best game in years..

Looking on the Forest thread I thought they were all ****** for saying that we have no ambition and our highlight of the season is either beating them or watching them fail in the playoffs.. They seem to have a point..

When you expect nothing, wins feel better and losses don't feel as bad.

But maybe 'we' as fans don't have much ambition because the board isn't particularly showing much? If the board doesn't feel that we are in the position of challenging to reach the PL, playoffs or otherwise, then why will the fans?

And beating Forest/watching them fail will always be a highlight, because that's what a rivalry is. Don't you think Everton fans love being above Liverpool?

Also, it bores me how much you fawn over Barcelona - go be a fan of them if that's what you're after, stop endlessly comparing.

[VulcanRam]

I'm glad you feel that way..

In 10 years time Derby fans will know deep down they've wasted thousands of pounds for what?

For 10 years of going out with my sons on Saturday afternoons to the football, of sharing some great fun and great times together, of having beers with mates in the pub beforehand and afterward dissecting the match, of travelling to other places in the UK visiting friends and family to tie in with games, to not have to be dragged around the shops etc

The problem with tv armchair fans like you Bris is that to you it's all about the actual football.

[Animal is a Ram]

For 10 years of going out with my sons on Saturday afternoons to the football, of sharing some great fun and great times together, of having beers with mates in the pub beforehand and afterward dissecting the match, of travelling to other places in the UK visiting friends and family to tie in with games, to not have to be dragged around the shops etc

The problem with tv armchair fans like you Bris is that to you it's all about the actual football.

Going to the football with my dad - even in my 20's - is still one of the best things.

Even though the matches I've seen over the years, Derby being competitive in the prem, and with my dad having seen Derby beating Real Madrid at the BBG, they won't ever compare to a rainy tuesday night in PP.

But it still feels like home, regardless.

[TelTheRam]

It's irrelevant who he buys.. The guy could buy the Barcelona B team but his style is percentage football.. That means spending as little time in the defensive third as possible and cut out the midfield instead of using them to build attacks..

SAF once said the midfield is the most important part of the team.. It's used to protect and to build.. Clough uses it to protect nothing else..

Even when we had a team available with the likes of Cywka, Bueno, Bailey, Brayford, Commons etc. he completely abdandoned the use of the midfield to play this percentage survival football..

All he's done over the past 4 years is improve the squad bit by bit and change personnel and formations.. But the style remains the same..

Correct on the first part - totally wrong on the second.

The football is far better now than when he came, much more passing and better posession.

The style then was hoof it to Hulse (who rarely won anything in the air and usually ended up on his backside)

If you want to see our recent style of play just watch the video of the third goal from Saturday.

THAT'S CLOUGHS STYLE.

[G STAR RAM]

For 10 years of going out with my sons on Saturday afternoons to the football, of sharing some great fun and great times together, of having beers with mates in the pub beforehand and afterward dissecting the match, of travelling to other places in the UK visiting friends and family to tie in with games, to not have to be dragged around the shops etc

The problem with tv armchair fans like you Bris is that to you it's all about the actual football.

The ground and beer are much better at Barcelona though, in years to come all fans will look back and say it was the best ground and served the best beer of our generation.

Also the transport system is much better in Barcelona, free flowing trains which are stopped dead right next to the platform.

You will have to ask my missus about the shops in Barcelona because I just stood outside sulking.

[EastKentRam]

Correct on the first part - totally wrong on the second.

The football is far better now than when he came, much more passing and better posession.

The style then was hoof it to Hulse (who rarely won anything in the air and usually ended up on his backside)

If you want to see our recent style of play just watch the video of the third goal from Saturday.

THAT'S CLOUGHS STYLE.

I was beginning to believe this nearer the start of the season but now im thinking we're only slightly better now than previous seasons. You start to see a pattern emerging every season under Clough, decent at home, poor away. After managing for 4 years at this level, he seems to have learnt how to play well at home, but still cant figure out how to away from home, which is worrying.

[TelTheRam]

I can't argue that we're generally poor away from home, but I believe with Clough its one thing at a time - just small steps forward (and a step backwards now and again).

Maybe when we have got the pride back into Pride Park then things will become easier in away games.

Anyway, we have a record on a par with Cardiff (top) away, and are second highest home goalscorers behind Crystal Palace (second) so its not all doom and gloom.

[Animal is a Ram]

I can't argue that we're generally poor away from home, but I believe with Clough its one thing at a time - just small steps forward (and a step backwards now and again).

Maybe when we have got the pride back into Pride Park then things will become easier in away games.

Anyway, we have a record on a par with Cardiff (top) away, and are second highest home goalscorers behind Crystal Palace (second) so its not all doom and gloom.

At home I'd say we're a top 6-8 side, but away.. well, Ipswich aside, aren't we the lowest goalscorers?

[CumbrianRam]

2nd highest home scorers, 2nd lowest away scorers, really odd.

[ChaddesdenRam]

We have got to go at teams away from home no 4-5-1.

[Ambitious]

We have got to go at teams away from home no 4-5-1.

A formation really has no effect... if you play 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 or 4-3-3 or whatever, it doesn't matter... it's the performance on the day.

You can play with 4 strikers, and just be as defensive... you can play 5-4-1 and be an attacking side - you've just got to set your stall out, and try and play higher up the pitch than your opponents.

I genuinely don't think it matters whether you are home or away, it's a mindset... end of the day, you're on a similar size pitch, with exact size goals playing with the same people... I just think we lack the confidence in ourselves away from home, and Clough makes up for that by adding another midfielder to try and win the midfield battle and make us the team with the possession.

A game will never, ever, EVER be won or lost by the choice of a formation - the players performance, and their application to the formation however will decide the winner of the match.

[cheron85]

Are we sure Bris is a Derby fan? Cos he doesn't seem to spend much time watching them and an awful lot of time watching other teams...

I watch plenty of Prem and European football AND maintain a season ticket despite living in London (typing this from work before heading up this afternoon) and can say that the quality of football at Derby is pretty high by Championship standards...

If you look at the teams recently promoted to the Prem (Reading, Swansea, Norwich, Southampton) all of them have been good passing teams with a big lad up front... it's called having a plan B... if you come up against a team which won;t let you pass cos they keep kicking you then you have an outlet...

Question for Bris - If we're a long ball side them how come ALL of our free kicks are taken short?

You obviously haven't watched the Brayford/Coutts partnership developing, the total disregard for having a tackler in midfield so that we can play 2 small guys who pass the ball and Nigel's insistence on shouting at anyone who misplaces a pass...

[cheron85]

Also, has anyone else noticed that our team is [size=1]TINY[/size]...

Long ball team? Sure...

[Duracell]

Football is Spain, Italy, Germany and South America is quality.. And in England 90% of it is rubbish.. But that's my opinion, I'm only expressing it.. If you don't agree, which you don't, then it's not a problem.. If you like the rush and tumble of English football then I'm happy for you..

I'll only ever call and express my opinions strongly when people come out with comments like 'NC has done a marvelous job here' or 'We play exciting passing football' or 'Bueno could never cut it here' or 'Will Hughes could play in the PL now' when comments like this are bordering on delusions of grandeur...

Those are opinions too, not deluded, and some of those are grounded on decent evidence, ie watching the games. I'm not saying you don't watch them, but all the same, those who watch the games are allowed to say what they like.

[Duracell]

I was beginning to believe this nearer the start of the season but now im thinking we're only slightly better now than previous seasons. You start to see a pattern emerging every season under Clough, decent at home, poor away. After managing for 4 years at this level, he seems to have learnt how to play well at home, but still cant figure out how to away from home, which is worrying.

I agree with this, we're not going to move on 'til we sort ourselves out away. Home form isn't even good enough to keep you up in some instances.

Part of the problem is undoubtedly that we're not an "away" club, everyone gets an erection about our support but our away support cancels out our home attendances (and incidentally, I think attendances and support are two very different things).

Clough needs to get us playing away from home and I'm not sure he goes the right way about it, but a having a couple hundred Derby fans shoved into a corner on a blowy Tuesday night against 10 times the support of the home team doesn't exactly help matters.

[Asanovic]

Name a team who always play attractive football in this league? Probably Blackpool are the only ones. Even Palace know when the only way to win is to give it to Zaha and stick it on Murray's head.

It's really hard to get out of this league, and it needs a degree of pragmatism. Peterborough try to play their way out of trouble, look where they are. Same for Barnsley. Same for Blackpool to a certain extent.

If you want a team based on attractive principles all the time in this league then fair enough, but it won't guarantee you any kind of success. This season has seen a marked improvement in terms of the quality of football.

Away from home I don't think it's that we completely abandon it and go route one, we just panic more. We don't set out to be unattractive, we just let teams make us play that way. That's where the improvement is needed, not our actual 'brand' of football.

I would hate to see us to be unattractive all the time, but I do want us to win matches, so I'm happy with a bit of a compromise. Football fans first, Derby fans second would rather see us pinging it around every game, and the result is secondary. But I'm not one of those people.

[samtheram83]

I hate the perception that Barca are the best team in history, ever, since the beginning of time. It's simply not true. Puskas and di stefano at real along with cruyff's Ajax and beckenbaurs Munich side might have something to say about it. U just can't truly state this with true certainty (that's aimed at u bris).

Back on topic, I think our 3rd goal was an excellent example of passing football. I'm not going to say we play like barca, arsenal or even Swansea or brighton but we are playing far better than we have been recently.

And finally I didn't read all this thread cos I got bored of the tooing and froeing of long arguments and over inflated opinions presented as the only way to think (again, aimed at u bris)