BaaLocks

Yeah...you are right power vacuums are potentially very dangerous.  Definitely not talking about the West attempting to remove him....just wondering whether his position within Russia may weaken as a direct result of this war. 
Again not suggesting taking out anyone...but as for climate change, Putin is the worst. China and India at least have plans for the future, that would, if actually implemented, make a big difference.  Putin is a climate change denier, has an economy based on fossil fuels...and he'd quite like Siberia to warm up a bit (the catastrophic amounts of methane that would release doesn't seem to bother him).

To tie this together with @sage's comments on why they are not clamouring for democracy, here are a few examples of things in place in Russia at the moment. Compare this with the support we (and others less fortunate than ourselves) get from our government and maybe the trade they are prepared to sign with their leaders isn't so far off after all.
Last New Year every child got the equivalent of £50 as a New Year's gift. You didn't have to apply for it, it was paid automatically on the digital card that they all have. Imagine how the Daily Mail would react to that one! In Moscow there is a programme called Active Citizen, where the public are allowed to vote and suggest on infrastructure improvements Puhskin's card, that allows students £30 of pre-payment to be spent on theatre, museums and concerts Last year, sunflower oil prices suffered inflation. The government capped prices, paying suppliers any losses to ensure it wasn't passed on to consumers During the pandemic, all hospital workers and medics working on C-19 had their salaries doubled All pensioners are automatically enrolled into a programmed called Long Life. Nothing to do with milk, it offers free classes of all sorts, inc. exercise, education etc Alongside this, many, many Russians have prospered in the past 20 years. For many, why would they want to throw this away for 'democracy'?
Slightly off topic of the thread but thought it would help. I guess my point is that it is so predictable that within a few days this is no longer just about Ukraine but the narrative now turns to somehow freeing Russia and offering them the democracy that actually many of them are not even asking for. It's just so arrogant for us to believe we have the best model and everyone else has to do it our way.

Yup, I can't reply directly to Norman's quotes as I have them on block. Some people are just not worth engaging with and, for me, he/she falls in that category. The reply you quoted reassured me I have made the right decision.

To tie this together with @sage's comments on why they are not clamouring for democracy, here are a few examples of things in place in Russia at the moment. Compare this with the support we (and others less fortunate than ourselves) get from our government and maybe the trade they are prepared to sign with their leaders isn't so far off after all.
Last New Year every child got the equivalent of £50 as a New Year's gift. You didn't have to apply for it, it was paid automatically on the digital card that they all have. Imagine how the Daily Mail would react to that one! In Moscow there is a programme called Active Citizen, where the public are allowed to vote and suggest on infrastructure improvements Puhskin's card, that allows students £30 of pre-payment to be spent on theatre, museums and concerts Last year, sunflower oil prices suffered inflation. The government capped prices, paying suppliers any losses to ensure it wasn't passed on to consumers During the pandemic, all hospital workers and medics working on C-19 had their salaries doubled All pensioners are automatically enrolled into a programmed called Long Life. Nothing to do with milk, it offers free classes of all sorts, inc. exercise, education etc Alongside this, many, many Russians have prospered in the past 20 years. For many, why would they want to throw this away for 'democracy'?
Slightly off topic of the thread but thought it would help. I guess my point is that it is so predictable that within a few days this is no longer just about Ukraine but the narrative now turns to somehow freeing Russia and offering them the democracy that actually many of them are not even asking for. It's just so arrogant for us to believe we have the best model and everyone else has to do it our way.

1: Fair enough, I can't say 'most Russians' but I have spoken to my wife's family over the past few days, plus friends, and that is very much their view.
2: Reason I have some insight? See point one! I've lived and worked in Russia as well. It makes me one voice, I do just want to try to point out that there is a lovely country, lovely people and a working system behind all of this (one that in many ways works better than our own or that of countries like the US). Even up until last week I would have described myself as something of a sympathiser of the way Putin ran the country, though that has obviously changed in the past week.
What I abhore is the way the politicians and media seem to now want to use this for opportunity. Even the silliness of the Tube strike message posted earlier in this thread shows how that happens, how we now see opportunity to not just end the Ukraine situation but to topple Putin, demonise Russia and impose yet more sanctions and restrictions on a country that many of us still view through the same lens as we did when they were in the Soviet Union. Isabel Oakenshott, posting that our fast response has been due to Brexit, also shows just how quickly people can be to take such horrible activities and reframe there for their own advantage.

To tie this together with @sage's comments on why they are not clamouring for democracy, here are a few examples of things in place in Russia at the moment. Compare this with the support we (and others less fortunate than ourselves) get from our government and maybe the trade they are prepared to sign with their leaders isn't so far off after all.
Last New Year every child got the equivalent of £50 as a New Year's gift. You didn't have to apply for it, it was paid automatically on the digital card that they all have. Imagine how the Daily Mail would react to that one! In Moscow there is a programme called Active Citizen, where the public are allowed to vote and suggest on infrastructure improvements Puhskin's card, that allows students £30 of pre-payment to be spent on theatre, museums and concerts Last year, sunflower oil prices suffered inflation. The government capped prices, paying suppliers any losses to ensure it wasn't passed on to consumers During the pandemic, all hospital workers and medics working on C-19 had their salaries doubled All pensioners are automatically enrolled into a programmed called Long Life. Nothing to do with milk, it offers free classes of all sorts, inc. exercise, education etc Alongside this, many, many Russians have prospered in the past 20 years. For many, why would they want to throw this away for 'democracy'?
Slightly off topic of the thread but thought it would help. I guess my point is that it is so predictable that within a few days this is no longer just about Ukraine but the narrative now turns to somehow freeing Russia and offering them the democracy that actually many of them are not even asking for. It's just so arrogant for us to believe we have the best model and everyone else has to do it our way.

We don't, you are right. I can tell you that in all my time of living and working in Russia I never really heard it raised as the most pressing need - and people do speak freely, it's not 1936 any more. The clamour is for an apartment, a car, a job, travel and general betterment in their lives.
I guess I was just trying to make the point that Western democracy is not always the answer and wherever we seem to have tried to implement it then it has pretty much always failed, or come at huge human cost.

You're absolutely right, but I think it is all interconnected. Latvia and Estonia are not seen as Mother Russia, nor Poland etc. The one thing that any Russian will tell you, and has been echoed time and again in the past months, is that they will never again tolerate foreign boots on their land so if you appreciate they believe Ukraine is intrinsically part of 'Malorossiya' / Little Russia then it all connects. And yes, there is a walloping paradox in there about not tolerating foreign boots on their land but no less than Kamala Harris stating that big countries invading small ones is wrong.
BTW - if you have time to see it Lavrov's speech to the UN yesterday was a very good way to understand their perspective. Which is why it was so disappointing to see the co-ordinated walk out as soon as he started. The key point Russia has been making is that they are judged before action (not wrt Ukraine but wrt the last 30 years) so that action simply reinforced (and demonstrated) that belief.
Probably if I could distill my seventeen pages of banging on here into one statement it would be "seek to understand before you seek to be understood" and nobody has taken the time to do that to Russia in the years of build up to these events.

1: Fair enough, I can't say 'most Russians' but I have spoken to my wife's family over the past few days, plus friends, and that is very much their view.
2: Reason I have some insight? See point one! I've lived and worked in Russia as well. It makes me one voice, I do just want to try to point out that there is a lovely country, lovely people and a working system behind all of this (one that in many ways works better than our own or that of countries like the US). Even up until last week I would have described myself as something of a sympathiser of the way Putin ran the country, though that has obviously changed in the past week.
What I abhore is the way the politicians and media seem to now want to use this for opportunity. Even the silliness of the Tube strike message posted earlier in this thread shows how that happens, how we now see opportunity to not just end the Ukraine situation but to topple Putin, demonise Russia and impose yet more sanctions and restrictions on a country that many of us still view through the same lens as we did when they were in the Soviet Union. Isabel Oakenshott, posting that our fast response has been due to Brexit, also shows just how quickly people can be to take such horrible activities and reframe there for their own advantage.

As an aside, I've spent quite a lot of time in the former Yugoslavian countries - and their "Yugonostalgia" is very real. They know they were freed from a dictatorship but there are *some* parts of that way of life they now realise were much better than what they have now. For example the comment I always remember was "everyone had a house, and a job, and food to eat. No one was allowed two houses, because why would one person need two houses? Apart from Tito (laughter)"
Same with friends I have who grew up in East Germany - for every horrendous tale of the authoritarianism if you stepped out of line, they also miss the feeling of not being in some squid game type rat race
Probably humanities greatest failing that we've never been able to get this right one way or the other

And she's completely contradicted US foreign policy in four or five sentences.

You're absolutely right, but I think it is all interconnected. Latvia and Estonia are not seen as Mother Russia, nor Poland etc. The one thing that any Russian will tell you, and has been echoed time and again in the past months, is that they will never again tolerate foreign boots on their land so if you appreciate they believe Ukraine is intrinsically part of 'Malorossiya' / Little Russia then it all connects. And yes, there is a walloping paradox in there about not tolerating foreign boots on their land but no less than Kamala Harris stating that big countries invading small ones is wrong.
BTW - if you have time to see it Lavrov's speech to the UN yesterday was a very good way to understand their perspective. Which is why it was so disappointing to see the co-ordinated walk out as soon as he started. The key point Russia has been making is that they are judged before action (not wrt Ukraine but wrt the last 30 years) so that action simply reinforced (and demonstrated) that belief.
Probably if I could distill my seventeen pages of banging on here into one statement it would be "seek to understand before you seek to be understood" and nobody has taken the time to do that to Russia in the years of build up to these events.

Thank you, that was how it was intended and also as response to the previous post about the Russian ambassador in Iceland. But i do appreciate that many are acutely sensitive - with very good reason - so I do reiterate I apologise if I caused offence in any way.

You can assume / conclude with some degree of certainty that the majority of the population east of Dneiper would choose to be part of Russia given the option - not all, it is somewhat akin to Northern Ireland in that you have divided desires but 18% of the population is considered Russian in all of Ukraine, large parts of the East are Orthodox, Russian passport holders and Eastward looking. Zelensky speaks for the majority but he does not speak for all of his country, unfortunately.
I remain hopeful that Putin's endgame is to invade all of Ukraine and then sue for a peace in which he retreats but takes Donbass and Lugansk. Sadly I am told by many it's all moved far beyond that now.

It's a really interesting juxtaposition, the mentality of people from east and west. It feels like the distrust is almost equal. Without living in that culture it's impossible to fully see how the other group think. 
Western democracy is heralded as something to aspire to, yet I see plenty of problems caused by it. I still see it as a "better" system than Russia adopted, but if I'd lived 50 years in Russia/USSR I can imagine that I might have a different opinion. 
I can't accept Russian imperialism without feeling discomfort for the rights of the Ukrainian people. But I also can feel sympathy for the culturally Russian areas of Ukraine that feel more closely with the Russian state. 
I don't know what the best course of action is, but appeasement feels like a mistake. In the name of reducing casualties? Why did we not accept the Taliban in Afghanistan, that would have saved lives? 
I know the west is highly hypocritical in the way it deals with intervention into foreign affairs, and there's plenty of opposition amongst the people to invasions such as Iraq. I also see the double standards with regards to self determination for states when we can deny some groups autonomy but arm the population of others to defend theirs. It's not a defense to the actions of Russia to point out what the US have done in the past. 8
And the EU looks more and more appealing to me, as a solid safety net against Russian imperialism. Why wouldn't Ukraine apply now? Russia can't use the threat of invasion to prevent it. 

Excellent point, and you are 100% right in what you say. Yet, at least in modern Russia, there is no large scale clamouring for it - the people are happy to live under the trade in the same way they are in most of China.
There also hasn't been in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan yet Americans and the West push for it under the flag of 'manifest destiny'. Our belief that we have the say on how other countries rule themselves is at the heart of almost all conflicts in the last 50 years.

There has never been a democracy in Russia or Soviet Union.

I'm not sure too many buy this "it's not gone very well in the first 96 hours" story. This is a country the size of France, if Russia wanted to take it lock, stock and barrel in that time it would have need a blitzkrieg style attack - which it clearly has not taken. The 40 mile convoy on it's way to Kyiv at the moment - however - looks like the start of that. It feels like an attempt to do this with minimal casualties has not resulted in Ukraine surrendering weakly so a much more fierce conflict is now being readied.
On this point I will offer a view. Zelensky should surrender now, move for a semi-autonomous republic style of rule, resign and save thousands of lives. There is simply no way they can win this war and all it will do is line the streets with the blood of Ukranians and Russians. It's horrible for them, but the only way for him to save the lives of his people now is to end this quickly. Then, in the years to come, push for more independent powers but play the long game and don't play the hero of my people role. Not easy, but the path of least bloodshed and escalation.

I think you've failed to understand Russian people and their history plus the situation/events in East Ukraine if you think he's saying that. 
It's that failure to recognise that history and the tie between the two nations (and other Soviet states) by America and its allies that has antagonised Russia. I think it's widely believed they failed to recognise it on purpose and aggressively pursued securing these areas. 
It's a bit like messing with an aggressive dog. If the dog bites and its in the wrong... you're still bitten. 
I'm not suggesting you give into this particular dog either. 

In  an actual sentence you haven't. But from reading some of your posts, that the conclusion I've come to.
And thankyou for all the fun.

Well done Liz Truss. 
You've got people going out there to earn tiktok follows now. Oh, I mean fight. 
I'm sure they'll be able to tell the difference between one Slav and the next. I'm sure they'll know how to work under extreme stress, possibly operate and maintain weapons. No problem with the language being able to read or communicate. And then there's the matter of insurance for death, injuries etc. 
Wonder if they'll feel good about the fine work of Ukraine's Azov Batalion. Or how they're prepared to be taken prisoner by Russian forces. 
Excellent work Liz. Up there with 
"We'll cut them off at the knees" and suggestions that this is the start of a bigger war with Europe/NATO. 
Is it not enough that Russia is reacting to security threats and conflict in Crimea and Donbas by mounting a full scale assault on Ukraine. Is that not enough truth? 
Does she have to play the whole new Hitler angle. 
Go free citizens of the world. Go to Ukraine and fight for NATO so that NATO doesn't break their treaties officially

It matters a lot, if you go back about 15 pages you will see me suggesting that I don't consider Putin a despot (let's not, we've done it to death) but that was part of my rationale. The Russian people are important to him and up until now he has enjoyed significant popularity - indeed this could well be the first time in his tenure where he is likely to feel a significant groundswell of opposition (Navalny, Nemtsov, Yavlinsky were all irritations - and yes, we all know what happened to two of those - but not really a threat).
It could, to your earlier point, lead to disillusionment in the armed forces but more importantly there are civil fissures that could erupt at any time. Chechnya is no longer a large concern, due to the funding it now receives (ifyou are interested Google images of Grozny, it is like Las Vegas now) but Dagestan, Ossetia and others could see this as opportunity to re-open previous conflicts.
Which is why I repeat, the people pulling the strings at the moment don't understand half of what are the implications of their potential actions. All through the Cold War the one thing that was avoided was destabilisation of Russia, a power vacuum there is potentially catastrpohic for us all. And no, before anyone piles on, that is not me saying let Ukraine fall to prevent that - I'm just saying that is a potential consequence of what has been put in motion on all sides. But there will be little sympathy to prevent it given the sort of tweets and information shared earlier in this thread.

As your namesake would say - we managed it for a good few years. Off topic, but even this thread needs a smile.
 

It matters a lot, if you go back about 15 pages you will see me suggesting that I don't consider Putin a despot (let's not, we've done it to death) but that was part of my rationale. The Russian people are important to him and up until now he has enjoyed significant popularity - indeed this could well be the first time in his tenure where he is likely to feel a significant groundswell of opposition (Navalny, Nemtsov, Yavlinsky were all irritations - and yes, we all know what happened to two of those - but not really a threat).
It could, to your earlier point, lead to disillusionment in the armed forces but more importantly there are civil fissures that could erupt at any time. Chechnya is no longer a large concern, due to the funding it now receives (ifyou are interested Google images of Grozny, it is like Las Vegas now) but Dagestan, Ossetia and others could see this as opportunity to re-open previous conflicts.
Which is why I repeat, the people pulling the strings at the moment don't understand half of what are the implications of their potential actions. All through the Cold War the one thing that was avoided was destabilisation of Russia, a power vacuum there is potentially catastrpohic for us all. And no, before anyone piles on, that is not me saying let Ukraine fall to prevent that - I'm just saying that is a potential consequence of what has been put in motion on all sides. But there will be little sympathy to prevent it given the sort of tweets and information shared earlier in this thread.

A national TV reporter obtained an interview with the Russian ambassador to Iceland Mikhaíl V. Noskov and loosely translated said this:  You live in a western society and follow discussions there, do you think anyone outside of Russia will believe your claim of there being actual Nazis in Ukraine?  Mr Noskov appeared stunned and replied with something along the lines of well you are free to believe what you like.
To give an idea of the hysterics at play locally, an online newspaper had a question for readers a few hours later.  Should the Russian ambassador be kicked out of Iceland?  84% answered yes.  Emotions be king, thought matters not.