Highgate

Why? 
You're another that criticises my bias and says I'm not worthy of replying to because of my beliefs (which I laid out for you and you ignored)
But in the defence of Palestinians I've only seen you say something about Netenyahu being bad for peace? 
You've added context for Jews. You've added context for Israel's right to be fearful and skeptical of their neighbours. But what have you said on behalf of the suffering and struggling of Palestinians? 
You've rightly exposed Iran, Syria etc for supporting groups to attack Israel. But you've not really condemned America or The West for encouraging Israel. 
You've said Israel is the most democratic liberal state in the region. But again, this is only half the story. 
I've seen the videos from October 7th. They are very very nasty. Things that aren't human. Truly vile and if there is a heaven/hell then all those who took part in that slaughter should burn forever. But there are some crimes that Israel claimed that have no evidence. Some omissions about what else happened that day. You chose to post an 'independent' (it wasn't) reliable (it isn't) link to proof. Now on light of many of the lies exposed do you understand why that would appear to be spreading propaganda. Or as I've been accused of "fueling the fire". What Hamas did was evil. 
See in this thread, despite my bias I'm not afraid of talking about the suffering of Jews. I'm not afraid of admitting the threats Israel have faced, still face and will continue to face. Hamas are bad for peace. I hate Hamas. 
My problem comes that to find common ground Israel has to be called out. It's not a democracy for all its people. There are terrorist attacks on Palestinians. There's Islamophobia. There's war crimes. There's breaches of International Law. It's not just naughty Netenyahu. Why do we not speak of what ulterior motives America may have?
I understand @PistoldPetefear that hatred of Israel could spread. That saying things like they hide behind antisemetism could encourage more of the Jewish suffering we've seen. I get it. 
But, there's no balance if we can't speak against Israel. If we can't use the same language for the crimes of both. If people can't say Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. 
I fully expect some flippant comment about this thread being a cesspit, full of nonsense or somebody say they're not replying etc etc. 
You said I'm not capable of having a conversation? I am. But first, just like you, I have to feel like I'm talking to someone who can begin to understand my position. If somebody is just going to tell me this is liberal, democratic state Vs Terrorists in disputed land then I'm going to rant. I don't want to defend Hamas. I want them gone. But are we going to understand why they're able to recruit so many Palestinians? Are we going to talk about how to remove them? No. We're just going to present them as villains and continue this tit for tat. Good Vs Evil. 
I'm not as blinded by bias as I'm accused of. I'm really not. But for years and years this conflict has been presented a specific way to the West. After enduring all the American propaganda and destabilising policy I just want Palestinian voices to be heard. 

Well we both agree the 53 Coup was wrong then, maybe for different reasons but at least that's a start.  I think all that has been said here is that Iran should have been allowed to continue without the malign influence of the US and UK.  Who knows what may have happened if the West hadn't interfered, it could be a democracy now or it could have regressed into something as bad as exists there now.  The point was, merely, that it grates when Israel is praised in the West for being the only democracy in the region, when the West actively prevented another country in region from having any chance to become a democracy, as well as supporting friendly dictators in the region (against their own populations) whenever expedient. 
I think you are under representing the difficulty in proving genocide. It's always extremely difficult to prove not only that some event happened but also the intent of the perpetrators.  And does it have to be the prime minister, or will a general do? Or a government minister? I accept that a few rogue soldiers is insufficient.  How many successful convictions of genocide have occurred since WWII and how many actual genocides have taken place since then, by your definition of the term?
Here is an interesting article on whether the current situation in Gaza should be classified as a genocide or not. 
https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/
I don't really care how the unfolding events are defined, it's not like Netanyahu would ever be convicted for his crimes as the US will have his back regardless.  All I know is what has been happening in Gaza is an atrocity, conducted by a state actor and that's all that really matters.  Needless to say, the attack by Hamas was an atrocity too. 
 
 

You got me. I'll try to care less. 🤣
There's is no nuanced discussion until Palestinians are considered equal to Israelis. Until Islamophobia is as criminal as Antisemitism. Until the IDF are held to the same standards as Hamas. Until we stop claiming "democracy" has some moral high ground when Israel isn't a democracy for all its population. Until we examine the things said by the Israeli government that definitely have genocidal tones. Until we can hear what all experts are actually saying instead of discrediting the ones we don't want to hear. Even if their point is valid. Whether it be Pappe or Gideon Levy. Historian or journalist. 
Your condescending tone annoyed me. Your support of American foreign policy. The most destabilising nation in my opinion. From WMD lies, Gulf Of Tonkin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki... Their world policing has an ulterior motive. There's plenty of experts who will say worse about them. 
I'm totally comfortable with you ignoring me or whatever you said. So add not mentioning me to that if you want 
Oh and your article. "The state of Palestine wouldn't be the utopia... Would give terrorists more freedom. " that was offensive. Palestinians have a right to national security. 
You're dismissive of all ME politics. It's The West way for you. And you'll justify it however it's enforced

I mean what am I supposed to do with this? Talk about the Hannibal Directive? Post videos from witnesses that say IDF open fire on their own people? Post videos of IDF shooting unarmed people?
It's not productive. It's not relevant. 
I'm not here defending Hamas. I just said that Israel won't get rid of them and that it's more likely they'll gain more support. That's just the truth. 

It seems to me that you almost support the decision to instigate the coup that removed Mossadegh in '53. If so then we definitely have different perspectives. 
Yeah, absolutely Israel has committed war crimes (as Hamas have). Are their actions better or worse than Assad? It's a needless comparison, suffice to say that Assad is awful in his own right. As for genocide, it's an unhelpful word really, mainly because the UN's  definition is so vague. 'An intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a religious, national or ethnic group' or something along those lines. An intent by whom, the decision maker?, the army that carried it out? individual soldiers? everyone involved? And In whole or in part? How big is a part?  Are 100 people a part? 1,000?  Who knows? So vague, the definition is almost meaningless. To debating what is and what isn't genocide seems like a wasted endeavour to me. And yet we know war crimes when we see them, and we know that Israel have been committing extensive war over the last several weeks.  It even announces them to the world beforehand. 
Orwellian because at a time when Israel was brutally bombarding Gaza, killing literally thousands of children, to be suggesting that the same IDF are some sort of world leader in the exercise of military restraint was just a bizarre moment on the DCFC forum. 

Hold on, are you saying Hamas are not great people? Wow, big news! Let's bomb to death 1000s of Palestinian children to teach them a lesson.

This makes a lot of sense, for Mars especially. I think some of the timescales being mentioned for a colony on Mars are just wildly optimistic. And with a few billion years before the Earth is toast, we are not exactly racing against the clock here. I'm totally in favour of these projects in principal, but I don't see the need to rush anything.
When you see the state of astronauts when they return from the ISS after a few months, in what is effectively a zero gravity environment, not being able to walk unassisted without the ground crew's support, you've got to wonder how we expect people to cope on Mars after a 6 month minimum trip, without any helpful ground crews to hold their weakened bodies upright. And we think those people would be in a condition to start building a base on Mars? it all seems unrealistic to me. For now. 
Now if we were planning building a giant telescope on the moon, I'd be all for it.  
 

Sounds like the West should have just left him alone to get on with it then. 
You've misunderstood me if you think I'm saying we should be making those comparisons, I've been saying that we should be judging Israel's actions on their own merits and forego relative judgements. 
I'm not sure Israel being a country that historically accepted legal limitations on how to conduct warfare is particular relevant now, given the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza that the world has just witnessed.  Nor do I think the news would be much comfort to the tens of thousands of Palestinians who are currently mourning the death of a loved one.  I'm not sure why anyone would bother mentioning it at this point to be honest. It's all a bit Orwellian if you ask me.  

True, they've always been in a precarious position and with their particularly tragic history in the background their siege mindset is completely understandable.  But the dodgy way in which Israel was created in the first place and the forced expulsion of so many Palestinians in 1948 are the injustices that have placed Israel in this unenviable position from the start.  

I agree with you about the Moon and Mars, but I'm thinking in terms of hundreds of years away rather than decades. 

If you've got relatively clear skies tonight it might be worth nipping outside quick, fantastic view of a Moon Halo - looks like full rainbow around the moon up in North Yorkshire atm.
My phone camera is pretty crap, but there are plenty of decent images like this one on t'internet
 

A weak argument I would say, considering the man involved, but by all means make it. Obviously, as with all historical counterfactuals, we have no idea how things would have turned out, but what we do know is that the US and UK had no interest in allowing the Iranian democratic experiment take hold as they perceived it to be a potential threat to their own political and financial interests. 
The reflexive support for Israel by many commentators in the West, on the basis that it's more democratic (provided you are not a Palestinian) than it's neighbours, has always been irritating, given the West's full support of many authoritarian regimes in the region and even their outright opposition to the birth of democracy in Iran.  
Furthermore, even though you'll get no argument from me that democracy is better than the alternatives, we still have to hold countries that are democracies (genuine ones as well as those that are merely democratic for some of their citizens) to the same standards as we hold other forms of government.  There is a tendency in the West to be more lenient when judging Israel  because it's a 'democracy'. The structure of a country's government is neither here nor there when that country is killing people en masse. 
 

This is the guy that said something along the lines of a free state of Palestine wouldn't be the utopia many imagine and would give terrorists more room to operate. 
That's what he thinks of Palestinians. 
And it's beautifully ironic that the democratic state of Israel (which isn't so democratic if your not the right type of citizen) is a state that breaches international law, murders Palestinians taking their homes, refuses to sign off on human rights laws/Rome Statute, ignores the International Criminal Court demands, doesn't show up to UN hearings on their military operations, holds Palestinians prisoners without charge....
The Arabs should just stop moaning and accept it's for the best. They're so uncivilised. 
 

No, I'm really not.

I'm not sure how the systematic slaughter of 14,000 civilians speaks to 'democracy'. When a state's response to losing 1,400 of their civilians is to kill ten times as many in retribution, debates for the moral high ground seem more than a tad fatuous. 

It is, if you are not a Palestinian. Especially one of those that was born there but never allowed to return to the country of their birth by the 'democratic' state of Israel. 
It's interesting to speculate what the situation in the Middle East would look like now if Iran had been allowed to keep it's nascent democracy in the 1950s, rather than having the US and UK destroy it, and replace it with a pliant, if brutal, dictator. I guess that's something we will never know. 
It seems to me that the Hamas attack was intended to prolong the war with Israel and prevent peace at all costs. A twisted and immoral strategy no doubt, but the overwhelming response from the IDF is probably exactly what they hoped for. 

It is, if you are not a Palestinian. Especially one of those that was born there but never allowed to return to the country of their birth by the 'democratic' state of Israel. 
It's interesting to speculate what the situation in the Middle East would look like now if Iran had been allowed to keep it's nascent democracy in the 1950s, rather than having the US and UK destroy it, and replace it with a pliant, if brutal, dictator. I guess that's something we will never know. 
It seems to me that the Hamas attack was intended to prolong the war with Israel and prevent peace at all costs. A twisted and immoral strategy no doubt, but the overwhelming response from the IDF is probably exactly what they hoped for. 

Shameless violently ruthless cowardly terrorist.... you're describing IDF? I have an open invite to West Bank that I've not taken up. You can be my +1 and tell the Palestinians there how brave, courageous and noble the law abiding IDF are. 
I'm suggesting Hamas are smart. Not good. 
Being the most liberal democratic state is not a free pass to do whatever they like to other people. Including the Muslim Arabs in Israel that are not equal. And the African Jews. 
https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/israel-is-a-democracy/

It is, if you are not a Palestinian. Especially one of those that was born there but never allowed to return to the country of their birth by the 'democratic' state of Israel. 
It's interesting to speculate what the situation in the Middle East would look like now if Iran had been allowed to keep it's nascent democracy in the 1950s, rather than having the US and UK destroy it, and replace it with a pliant, if brutal, dictator. I guess that's something we will never know. 
It seems to me that the Hamas attack was intended to prolong the war with Israel and prevent peace at all costs. A twisted and immoral strategy no doubt, but the overwhelming response from the IDF is probably exactly what they hoped for. 

Crikey.
Someone says one bad thing about Musk and the whole thread explodes quicker than one of his rockets.

Explosion 2 incoming , personally think he’s a bit of a knob but to be fair my impression was that Twitter was run by knobs before him , question seems more do you prefer your knob hanging to the left or hanging to the right 🤷🏻‍♂️, standing straight up the middle is a bit to much to ask for 

But how can you justify making, in my opinion, the most inaccurate and biased post on the thread and then ask others to 'dial it down'? 

That's absurd. The state of Israel have been committing unarguable crimes against the Palestinian people since 1948. That's not even debatable.  Hamas commit them too, no doubt, but to say it's only them...??  That's surely an example of a profound pro-Israeli bias. 

But how can you justify making, in my opinion, the most inaccurate and biased post on the thread and then ask others to 'dial it down'? 

That's absurd. The state of Israel have been committing unarguable crimes against the Palestinian people since 1948. That's not even debatable.  Hamas commit them too, no doubt, but to say it's only them...??  That's surely an example of a profound pro-Israeli bias.