May Contain Nuts

...which is fine, but at times it isn't the opposition dragging us down to their level; it's us lowering ourselves to theirs, often intentionally, that grates.

Simpe really. Managers don't tend to get much praise for being 'around par'. Especially when the football they're serving up is regularly so hard to watch. Praise and criticism in equal measure is a bit of a pipedream and the improper distribution of it is hardly something you're immune from yourself. The problem isn't that we're not playing scintillating football, it's that on more occasions than a few we've barely even looked like a team at all and that's easily attributable to the way we set up. I'm sure most of Warne's current critics would accept us playing football which is a bit more 'dull', but a lot more organised because they'd at least see how the we take what we're doing forward and build on it to successfully play it at a higher level. It's why on the other thread you have people rating Cocu above Warne - that certainly can't be because of their respective results on the pitch. And you can't just write off how disjointed it is because "we are also in League 1 with a squad of League 1 footballers," that's just such a weak get-out, as if it's impossible for a League One club to have a coherent manner of playing. We're not asking for that every single week, but more than once a month would be encouraging!

Levels of enjoyment will surely also depend on what stage of your 'supporting life' you're at. I'm not really sure I was casting a critical eye over the specifics of our play under Davies for example, I was just there for the ride and don't really recall making much of anything in the way of an assessment as to whether it was good football or whether it was entertaining me or not. I enjoy watching us play entertaining football, sure, but enjoyment and entertainment aren't mutually exclusive There have been things to enjoy when watching most managers. Jim Smith obviously had us playing some lovely football in the PL but it was before I was really attending games, only really saw us on TV. Bloody loved watching players like Wanchope, Baiano, Sturbridge and we were regularly, at least for a few season, getting good results against some excellent competition while playing some amazing football. Gregory I have very little recollection of tbh. Burley's spell is right near the start of my ST holding days. Enjoyed that for similar reasons as Smith, we had some class overseas signings, played pretty football and were competing for promotion for a place back at the top table. That was ruined by the ownership, without whom we could have built something that got us back to where we had been under Smith. It was exciting to me. Brown was a crazy time, we were a mess, he was out of his depth, but it oddly intriguing and I can't say that in some small way I didn't enjoy it. Davies, on reflection the football wasn't pretty but we had a number of players you could really get behind, there was the iconic Stevie Howard, the graft and experience of Oakley, the skill of David Jones, magic moments from an academy product in Giles Barnes. Big Dave Darren Moore need I say more. Leacock came from nowhere and looked a classy defender. Above all though we were an excellent TEAM and the goal in sight (and achieved) was the Premier League. It mattered not whether it was entertaining. Jewell oh god Jewell. Still, we knew we were s*** but we made the most of it as a fanbase, before relegation at least. Gallows humour provided some light relief. Second season it just snowballed, even though on paper some of our signings were pretty decent, Commons & Hulse would go on to be bright sparks in Cloughs early days and even though he's divisive, I quite liked having Robbie Savage here. Clough I have massive respect for given the job he had on. It's such a long period of time he was here it's hard to distill it into one paragraph, but slowly and surely he built the team that McClaren would enthrall us all with. There were bumps, many, along the way but all throughout you knew he was doing it all for the benefit of Derby County, on a genuinely shoestring budget whilst trying to compete with teams with far greater spending power than us. The intent was always there to play good football, but he seemed to lose sight of it too easily when things went awry He also lead us to 10 straight victories over Leeds and some memorable games against Forest. He'd just taken us as far as he could though IMO. McClaren I don't think I need to say much about tbh, great times even if we didn't make it up - one bloody kick differently in the QPR game, or George Thorne's knees holding up, or Ibe not being recalled and we were on the verge of potentially another Smith-style era of playing attractive football at the top level. Clement not great, not awful, we still had most of the McClaren stalwarts so there was still a clear bond with the team, so it was still enjoyable and we still had hopes of PL football. Pearson simply got it all wrong but his time was brief enough to not leave me with (m)any lasting mental scars. Wassall knew exactly what we wanted to see, and he got us playing some very enjoyable stuff but he was maddeningly naive tactically. Enjoyment and frustration equal. Rowett, similar to Davies. Not pretty but again it was all about the team. Not entertaining but still enjoyable, Championship playoffs with Vydra unplayable at times, a massively clinical, goalscoring marvel. Lampard through sheer quality of loans was enjoyable. Cocu had a really good spell before all the rugs were pulled, and his work bringing through the academy players was excellent, it was a delight to see them coming through and showing their worth at Championship level. Rooney/Rosenior... first season dire, utterly dire but punctuated by the elation. of staying up on the final day. 2nd season the us against the world mentality made for some.memorable and enjoyable games. Warne... very little of the above applies. We don't play nice football, there's no sense that we're onto something good we can build on in years to come, we aren't a good 'team' despite having some good players, the tactical management is almost as naive as Wassall's and what seems to constitute entertainment is 'going toe to toe' with some piss poor teams so that it's nice for a neutral to watch. That sort of entertainment does not (to me) enjoyment make.

All the evidence? All the evidence points to us being able to put in awful performances for a significant proportion of our games and still be one win away from top place. Imagine if we actually had to play well to win!? That you seem to think the evidence points to it being a difficult league is an example of you embellishing the job done. I've literally just said it isn't dead simple so please don't accuse me of saying something I haven't.

...and I don't understand your desire to embellish the job he's doing while using 'cautionary tales' as a distraction. The expectation from inside and outside the club is that we're challenging for the top two, but the way you talk it would be acceptable / understandable if we were 12th. The failure of other teams to do what they're supposed to is not our business. The relegated teams have their own s*** to sort out, we've got a year's preparation / 'progress' on them. I know the league is weaker this year because I watch our games and see the quality of opposition, I see how poorly we can play and get away with it simply due to having just two or three players who can pull out that little bit of class every now and then, while the opposition broadly fail to capitalise on our mistakes. Who said anything about it being an irretrievable disaster?

Fine if that's the way you want to play it. I won't waste my breath trying to have a proper discussion with you again. Not really sure what the personal stuff you're going through at the minute is and I hope it works out well for you, but whatever it is it's made you into a right high horse riding arse on here.

Completely the opposite IMO. Warne came in after the majority of the hard work was done, he was handed what was already a top 8 (potentially top 6) squad and has since been allowed to bring in a good number of players, albeit limited on transfer fees, on wages higher than the majority of our competition can pay. Added to that, his first full season in charge is one in which the quality of the opposition we face is below standard in an already low quality league, owing to 2 of the relegated teams having points deductions with Reading particularly in a mess. I can't think of any manager in living memory other than perhaps Lampard with an easier brief. (Should have got us promoted with the standard of loan player we had, but he was also up against teams with even greater spending power) That's not to say that it's dead simple, that there aren't still challenges we face, but he's not a rookie manager, getting out of League One is his speciality and he should fully be expected to achieve that with the resources he's been given. Warne is supposed to be our trump card, but at times it's more like he's a joker in the pack

Think this says quite a bit tbh. When I read your posts I generally think they're well balanced and always considerate of the opinion of others but you do recognise the posts which are sunny for the sake of false.optomism but you will also call out negative troll posts when they go OTT. I guess what I'm saying is...

It's an honest assessment and he too thinks we got a fortunate victory because we have more class than the opposition. That's great. He understands us. Or does he? Or is he just saying what he thinks those booing at half time want to hear? Does anything change as a result?

Got it wrong from the off, rescued by a brilliant free kick to equalise, then got it right and won. Not sure what happens if Bird doesn't drag our arses back into it though.

Of course. That said the level of personal abuse of our manager that actually exists is massively overstated and topic names like this one fool people into thinking it's widespread, and that the nature of discussion on the forum has been abusive off the back of the previous result. See David's post earlier, avoided the forum, but really aside from one or two exchanges (of varying length) the discussions have been constructive. Exactly what the forum should be for. (Some of the below is actually a little tongue in cheek and slightly exaggerated for effect, but some truth lies within!) Then you get the posts trying to claim that there's a large swell of people who'll simply never like Warne whatever he achieves, which seems to be mainly from people who just have very low standards and see us getting promoted this season as some sort of miracle and have decided that it's an achievement that ranks up there with what Jim Smith or Billy Davies achieved! (It really really isn't) It's almost as if they've bought into the small club mentality. Plus the old "I see the moaners are coming out of the woodwork after a negative result" schtick, usually spouted by people who've actively been accusing negative posters of 'ruining the board' or similar by 'posting repetitive, boring rubbish' when we weren't playing well, essentially telling them their voice wasn't welcome - then acting like those dissenting voices are committing some sort of crime against Derby County when they speak up after a bad performance/result that's come about because of the issues they'd identified all those months ago, which still haven't been and show no signs of being rectified, or indeed any attempt to be. That one always makes me laugh. You can't tell people to shut up and then slag them off for being quiet! It I do think there are some who just think the forum should be some utopia of positivity. There's so lovely low-key 'I'm a better supporter than you' vibes at times too.

Isn't there quite a simple fix for this though? There's no reason Bird can't sit in front of the back 4 and turn the ball over, it's what he's done under every other manager at senior level. Fornah or Thommo the engine and Hourihane between the lines as you describe. I'm not saying it would work if we suddenly dropped what we were doing and switched the players around because it would have to be something we've worked on all season on the training ground. While I understand that having Bird further forward allows him more involvement in big moments and gives him a nice little stat boost individually, is it really what's best for the team? Our midfield doesn't look balanced because we're asking it to function normally whilst performing a headstand. It's upside down.

All I'll say is I admire your level of faith in things going to plan.

There's a 1 in 45,057,474 chance of winning the lottery (0.000002219388%), so no. Besides, if I told you the winning numbers, then I'd have to share the jackpot with you.

Opening for Warne? 😉

Even if a lack of forward planning and a style of play unsuited to the Championship sees us relegated straight back to this bloody league?

This was pre-FGR at home last season. It set alarm bells off for me at the time and it's just stuck with me ever since, and I'm reminded of it whenever I watch an opposition stroll through us, or we leave a player exposed as the last line of defence. "I understand that the way we play sometimes we're vulnerable on the counter attack, but that's the way I want to play. I want to play and watch a team that attacks, are relentless, and tries to create enough chances to score. My one criticisim is that I don't think in the final third we've been as concise as we should be" While it's not explicitly "I'm not bothered" or "I don't care" it is, I believe (and evidence of how we play would back this up) pretty much tantamount to that.

Quick, one touch football is great when you're a well structured team with good movement and well-rehearsed passing routes, when everyone knows where one another is going to be, when players are closer together and the passses are generally a bit safer. We're not that team though, are we? We often still look like strangers, there's little cohesion to our attacking play, often our players are too spread around, too far apart because as soon as we get the ball they're urged to haul ass up the field to support an attack, we have fewer options for each pass and they're riskier as a result. Sometimes we need someone to put their foot on the ball, calm it down, wait for their teammates to get back into position but we don't have / don't do that.

Load of pollocks

Aye, hence 'even more' short terminism. I'd accept Warne as a manager in the Championship if he gets us up, but I struggle to see past some fundamental flaws in his approach which are unlikely to ever change, and will cause us problems, regardless of who we sign.

It would annoy me as it would represent even more short terminism.

Think there needs to be some sort of pact wherein we all agree that if we're talking about comments on Twitter or similar that it's explicitly stated in the post, otherwise it ends up looking like you're/we're accusing people on the forum of this behaviour, which leads to unnecessary ill-feeling on here. Like bringing your problems at work home to a spouse and ranting about them all evening while they just want a quiet night watching telle. Or that we just acknowledge Twitter for the cesspit it is and don't bring s*** from there into conversations on here.

Seen said poster on here across multiple years, managers, players etc. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but can't remember a single good thing he's ever had to say about anyone or anything associated with the club. Lots and lots of posts similar to the ones you're replying to though!

How did I miss the news that someone had perfected time travel? Could have sworn the last page of this thread has been done to death over a year ago. What does still rankle is that we've been told it's all about sustainability and a long term view, but then we've committed ourselves to a s*** or bust manager and play in his image, in a style that gives us little in the way of a solid foundation to build from and currently doesn't even look sustainable over the course of a full season let alone the next few years.

Precisely why I haven't watched or listened to any interviews from him since he had a mardy after being challenged on RD post Stevenage. I don't want to be that person who overanalyses his every word, so instead I choose not to pay them much mind. He just says so. many. things, often contradictory things, that set the alarm bells off. Reeled out at such speed that it makes my head spin, so it's better all round if I pay his words no attention and just look at what's offered up on the pitch instead.