The Key Club King

7 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

too much in that to get stuck into. But you might want to look a little more carefully at the defences to libel

There was a world of difference between say Cocu and Rooney. Cocu had the interests of the club at heart. As did LR. Rooney was interested only in himself and his future. He fooled a lot of people. But he fools fewer and fewer as the years pass. And he and his agent tried to ensure Rooney (through Kirchner) had tenure. Lucky escape for us

 If we’d had a good manager that season we’d quite likely have escaped relegation - despite the deductions. 

Ironic thing about your posts is that despite wanting to continually berate Morris (don’t mind that but it’s now a bit boring), you won’t blame him for putting an incompetent manager in charge of the team. 

Not sure why there is all this love for Cocu. Nice bloke certainly, but we were woeful that year, should have been relegated, and the squad was far better and built under far fewer restrictions than the following year. Other than 2007/08 it was the worst I have seen Derby in 40 years of following them. 

The sad passing of Trevor Francis has me thinking about how old fashioned we are when giving such importance to transfer fees. Wages are so much more important than transfer fees nowadays, certainly outside of the Premier League. Small/no transfer fees will hamper us somewhat but we can attract players that almost no other club in the division can as we can pay the most. Even if we spent £1m on a player it would still be about 10% of our budget. Our fans were getting salty last year whenever opposition managers talked about our much larger budget than theirs - they were talking about wages, not transfer fees.

We were very consistent under Billy Davies in 2006/07 yet the McClaren season in 2013/14 was more memorable and entertaining in my opinion. I like the idea that we go out to win and fancy ourselves as being better than the opposition rather than try and stop them and use gamesmanship. I like Warne and think we will go up this season but I dread the timewasting we will do when away at Carlisle to hang on to a 1 nil lead. 

2 hours ago, Raich Carter said:

But it's all relative isn't it. When we were challenging for the Prem, of course we're looking at big name players, exciting youngsters (look where that all got us!). Now we are where we are, of course we're looking at lesser known players. We're signing players who have played regularly at a higher level than we're at - for me, given where we are, that's good news. What did you expect exactly...? More over-priced, money chasing luxury players like Lawrence and Johnson? (meeeeooow! ;))

Also, factually incorrect to call him a backup player when he's played 163 games in 5 seasons for Luton. 4 seasons of which was in the Championship. 

I'm not sure my point got across well at all. Bradley is a decent signing as is Washington and I certainly don't expect/want or think we deserve big money signings. What I meant is that Bradley is seemingly thought of as akin to Dave Mackay signing and transforming us to the best club in the country, whereas Connor Washington is the reinacrnation of, well, Connor Sammon. Neither of which is true (well hopefully not the second one anyway) and is not really based on anyone actually watching them. 

I'll judge a player when I watch them, and as I don't really know any of our signings then I carry no real preconceptions about them into this season. 

45 minutes ago, londonbridgeram said:

I'm a bit disappointed. £2m for Knight? I'm sure he'll be disappointed too. Unless Bristol City are going to launch themselves, as they seem to have been talking about for some time.

Though it may seem disappointing, I think we have collectively horribly overvalued some of youngsters on breaking through but go on to sell them for retrospectively decent fees. Very few of our players (outside of the Mel/3 Amigos firesales) have gone on to command a fee in excess of what we sell them for. Morgan Whittaker may go on to be one of those few.

Will Hughes felt like we were being ripped off but he was only sold on to Palace for less than we sold him for. Bogle, Lowe, Hughes, Hendrick, Cyrus Christie and Luke Thomas we received good money for. 

10 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Never heard of him but then I know very few Luton players (I didn't know he played for them), but what does that matter? I can look at his stats and hear him talk and he seems a very good signing indeed.

More of an observation on those "cheat code" nonsense comments I've heard based on a backup centre half at a Championship club that few people have watched or noticed.

The parallel reactions between Bradley and Washington who have had pretty similar career paths is ridiculous. 

Seems like a good signing but which of us, like me, had never heard of him before we were linked with him? Can someone run one of those polls as I'd love to know? 

Quite like it. Never fully understood the love for the original that it is copying - even the ram is facing the wrong way. The Bukta one afterwards was far better. 

I expected play-offs as a minimum last year and was disappointed we didn't. Though we were hampered by only getting frees and a salary cap, I think having a clean slate with no real dead wood players running down their contracts and creating a toxic environment gave us every chance of overcoming that. Having said that, the form of the top three was such that I don't think think any manager would have got us promoted automatically especially one that came in part way through. 

Next year, with the top three promoted, I fully expect us to get in the top two. Warne has no chance at all if we don't make the play-offs next year. 

None of this is based on us being "massive" (one of the worst songs we've ever sung IMO) but purely on us having a top two budget that will be double most clubs and quadruple quite a few. 

Not a great result for Derby as they were 20 points ahead of us. That's a gap that we need to make up and they need to maintain. It looks like a collapse, but 96 points will win the league most years and we were a country mile off that. 

Some interesting thoughts on this. Forest have always produced better youngsters than us - maybe because it is a large city.

On a side note - who is the best footballer Derby have produced? Either from youth teams or the reserves.

All I'm asking for from our new owner is to build a sustainable, self-funding football club by buying exciting players on high salaries at expensive fees. This can start by bringing in expensive former players that have failed with us, moved on and failed elsewhere, and are now magically available on free transfers. 

Maybe I've been reading too much Twitter.

Most of us wanted Ashley as he has deep pockets and we can complain if he does not "invest". Spending lots of money remains the most effective way to get promoted and always has been. Despite seemingly well-run clubs like Brentford and Brighton doing well, this will not last (see Swansea, Burnley, Bournemouth, West Brom, Sheff Utd etc.)

Forest have had a magnificent season and if anybody wants to tell me what the Forest model is than I'd be interested to know. I'd say it's spend lots of money, a few dodgy loans/buys/sales, sack your manager and then hire another one until it works out. 

8 hours ago, rammieib said:

Either way, what worries more is whether we can offer him the job whilst in Administration? Three days (if that’s what the deadline for Clowes is) is three days wasted to get new players in etc

Not sure either whether we can offer him a new contract but he will be on a good wage already and is desperate for a managerial job and this is a pretty good one. Keep the terms of his current contract and take on the new role I would say. He seems eager to step up. 

Rosenior will probably get it as he is already on the payroll and it keeps costs down.

I never understood the reflected glory that some coaches get from being second in command. Jody Morris seemed to get a lot of love but when asked what he has done to show that he is a good coach, I'm not sure anyone could give a good answer as to why he is. I'd say the same with Rosenior. 

Picking a manager below the elite level is 90% luck and nobody does it consistently well. Might as well give Liam a go. 

25 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Good morning folks. 
 

Quick Question:

why is MA seen here as a previously successful football club owner? 
 

My opinion is that he took an established PL team down with bad management appointments. Gave out novelty Contracts. Ruined Derby’s promotion push by unsettling McClaren, stunk up the PL by not buying decent players and then finally succeeded by selling them to a country. 

Considering what Derby fans have been through, his club-owning C.V looks pretty successful.

At the point where Mel took over it seemed to be the best possible scenario for us and it's turned out to be the worst. Personally, I would be happy with any of the prospective bidders as keeping the club going is more important, and ownership can and does change fairly frequently. 

In summary, so long as it isn't Hitler, Kim Jong-Un or Kenny Burns, I'll be happy with anyone.  

There's long been a presumption amongst our support that we undersell players but this thread has thrown up very few players that went on to better things (other than loan players). I think the Huddlestone/Rasiak fire sale seems to have stayed with us as our outgoings haven't been bad. Even Will Hughes lost value after moving to Palace from Watford and we thought we were really done over on that one.

8 minutes ago, Yani P said:

Still trying to play out from the back under a constant press...brain dead decision making..

It's the managers' decision to do this and Rooney has said he takes responsibility for it.

57 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Under GSE, with costs cut to a very low level, we were still losing ~£7m a year.  And that was without the costs for a Cat 1 academy etc.  If we go down to League 1, that's something like a £6m drop in income purely from TV money. You probably have to assume attendances are going to be lower at that level too.  It's not rocket science to think a club of our size is going to be losing money at League 1 level, and require additional funding to cover that.  If the intention is to pay some of the debts over 3 years, then that's a cost that needs to be covered too.

It's okay saying you're paying £30m for potential, and that absolutely is why Kirchner is buying us, but that £30m alone will come nowhere close to realising that potential IMO. And that's not including signings or anything, that's purely to cover the costs of running a near-Premiership set of facilities at League 1, and even Championship level.

Derby will lose money even if we sell the remaining big earner (Bielik). Rooney himself is the main problem for wages as his alone (£60k rumoured) will be half the average wage bill of a League One team. Sunderland get 30k gates and their turnover is less than £20m now the parachute payments have dried up. 

As much as GSE are now commended for running us (almost) sustainably there were protests against them for "lack of investment".  

21 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I don't think the sticks over the move.  Correct that he may want to sign a contract if we can't offer him one, particularly with his history of injury.  People are, I feel rightly peed off that this was on the go as far back as 5-6 weeks, despite denials to his manager who had to force this information out of him in the last two weeks as his performance has dropped considerably.  If he wanted off, we could have got a decent fee in January but this move, with its convoluted passage to Hertfordshire, with a big signing on fee means we get sod all.

If he, or indeed any of the soon to be out-of-contract players, are not actively seeking employment for July than they are playing fast and loose with their own future. If I could not be offered a contract at all by my present employer (who may get liquidated too) and my contract is running out in three months, then I would be spending most of my time job-hunting. The fact that Rooney is getting as much as he is from players that are concerned about their future is probably his greatest achievement.  

And if he was getting stick from a few people who cannot see beyond their own interests, imagine what the reaction would have been if he went to Forest in January! 

Best of luck Festy!

The kid is most likely on little more than minimum wage on a contract that was signed before he was anywhere near the first team. He has zero job security and an injury in the coming weeks may mean he would not get picked up by anyone. And some people question his loyalty!

If I'd have been offered an extra pound a week for my paper round I'd have been straight down to GT News in Allenton to sign on there.

I'm not sure this would be a thread if we were at the other end of the league. Football is only broken if your team isn't winning. 

43 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?

My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.

The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.

After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 

Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 

My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..

I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.

I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 

Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.

My other observations may not be popular….

Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.

Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

A fantastic and very insightful post. I'd posted something similar based on my observations but you clearly have more knowledge than I do. Criticism of young players is difficult but it is important to be honest and, more importantly, be happy to be proved wrong by them. 

For what it's worth, I rate Plange and think he will make a good Championship player in the future. As for Festy, he looks equal measures of world-beating dribbler/terrible passer of the ball and I've given up predicting what level he will get to and just enjoy the entertainment that he brings. 

22 minutes ago, SecretDave said:

I think running the club similar to Brentford is a good way forward. They have a good scouting network and get players in for reasonable prices, make them better players, sell them for loads more and then repeat the process again. I would like to see Derby run like that going forward. I bet Brentford's accounts were pretty decent - maybe not break even but nowhere near breaking FFP.

I'm not sure Brentford have a patent on this sysytem. Every club tries the same it's just that Brentford are currently particularly good at it. 

2 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

So not harsh then....

Opportunities are made through doing well in training. We don't get to see this so our assessment is based on the few games we see. There was a clamour from fans for Marriott to play based on some exciting finishing but the various managers really did not trust him. Similar now with Louis Sibley I think. Whatever politics is in play this is superceeded by the manager having to play the best team he can to stay in his job. 

4 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

I hope that Derby fan is okay and his family too.

But not all there fans are not like that as I had natter to them in away game there.

Well said. It was a lot of them but not all of them singing that. I've been in our end when our fans have sung some bad stuff. Singing the same song about Gibson today for instance. I mean he is a Bamford but that's too far.