Our new signings - quantity over quality?

[Bris Vegas]

I didn't realise being a happy clown and predicting a top season with our quality signings was the only way to go around here..

Anyone that speaks a bad word about our amazing team is either a WUM or a Forest fan..

You do realise we finished 19th last season.. And the money we've spent this season is Barnsleys best CB (watch them improve their defence next season and get promoted like Blackpool did with the invincible Barker).. Tyson and his prolific goalscoring record of about 1 in 7 and Killies/Aberdeens best players... Watch them join our recent illustrious list of top signings from Scotland (Bob Malcolm, Stephen Pearson, Kenny Miller, Chris Porter)..

I'm expecting the worse hoping for the best..

You guys are expecting a good season (top half) and come Jan/Feb will be moaning your tits off if we're struggling.

Oh, and Barkers average

[Alph]

I usually have pretty positive outlook during the summer months. Last summer i was pretty happy going into the season that we'd finish mid table based on Cywka, a fit Commons, Hulse and more of the same from Barker. Plus we'd got our minds fixed on a system. 4231 based on possession football. We said we'll find a way to play and stick with it no matter what because it is a winning formula. Full of confidence with a young exciting squad supporting experienced performers like Green and Hulse and Bywater and Savage.......... i was sure we'd finish top 12. The by December i thought Play Offs were a cert. Maybe even win promotion one way or another!

This summer though my optimism has taken a battering. Since our Play Off victory over WBA it's been dissapointment upon misery upon dissapointment. I wont hold my breathe for a good season any longer.

I'm not a wristslasher, just i really believe we've entered seasons with better preperation, with better a better equiped squad.

For me this summer seems about panic buying. Sure some players are coming with expectation and pedigree. Fielding and Ward are more than welcome additions. Shackell too seems a pretty well thought through aquisition.

But we've not (or atleast the fans haven't) identified a system. We've not set in our minds how we're going to play. Last summer we did, and then for some reason it was changed to 442 hit n hope. What's the message then? Is 4231 not the way? Is passing football only good for summer months? Or when we're winning? What if we're not winning?

I'd love to believe McGuire and Bryson are gems like Brayford and Bailey. But after our recent seasons i'm leaning more towards Porter and Pearson (who was at Celtic!!) and Miller. Particularly McGuire, Tyson, Robinson and potentialy Waghorn are all described as pacey. Now we all like pacey players, they can be exciting. But being exciting doesn't mean winning. Blackpool were labeled exciting..... but they were relegated. No matter what anyone says, they were relegated. They gave a good account of themselves, but would they change it all to be a slighly more boring Wigan right now? What are we to do with a squad full of "explosive" players?

Was we missing pace last season? Where? We missed aggression, intelligence, composure...... a fricking midfield with an ounce of strength and a striker who can find the net. What's been addressed? Why will Tyson suddenly become a goalscorer? Why will Robinson become twice the player he was last season (sure maybe he's a slightly more long term project but we finished 19th. Our top scorer scored about 6, so i kind of think we need to discount him for now or we should of spent the money on something less risky. We're in run of relegation flings!!) Maybe Bryson will add some bite to midfield...... but having seen our other Scottish imports i wont just start playing with myself just yet.

The whole thing looks to me like we're trying to just sort of blitz the Championship with frightening pace and expose some of these bouncer type CB's. Sounds a bit simple to me. I'd rather have a core of footballers. Tacklers, passers, aerial threats, passengers...... the lot! Everything geared towards playing the game as a team. Playing developing football rather than trying to blitzkrieg everyone. I want a midfield monster and a clever tactician feeding creative flair players. I want 2 fullbacks playing a supporting role. I want a striker like Kuqi sniffing for scraps, relieving pressure, giving better players options. Raw pace can only take you so far. Being a fast runner isn't enough.

I just don't want to get to December and think, "hey! Pace isn't enough! We're not putting the ball in dangerous areas enough, we're not feeding a dangerous striker. We're not putting pressure on teams, we're not all switched on, We haven't got a variety of ideas on the pitch" I don't want next season to be like the last 3 or 4 except this time we lose with pace!! I don't want to go another entire season with our team overrun because their either weak or surrendering possession.

Maybe Bryson will add that bit of quality. Maybe McGuire will have it all. Maybe Tyson just needs new scenery. Maybe Nigel is looking now for someone (possibly Eustace) who will add a bit of backbone to our rather barren defensive midfield. But it's not fair to have a pop at people for not sharing that optimism when the last few seasons have all been massive dissapointments on the pitch. If you want to predict the future, history is what we all go off. If it all goes well then it'll be the wristslashers who enjoy it the most because it's what they least expect. We're all Derby fans here that want us to do well. Surely no one really cares that much about scoring points of each other do they?

If certain people are to be believed then Derby are open to offers for Cywka. THAT would be worrying imo. Because him, along with Bailey, Brayford etc are footballers. They are far more central to a squad than a pace player. Pace players are the icing on the cake. A footballer is that actual cake.

[Albert]

How the hell is this panic buying?! This is the opposite, we've drawn out a list of targets and are methodically getting them one by one.

In other news the reason why Blackpool managed to get promoted was the signing of one Charlie Adam which they could do due to the sale of one Shaun Barker. I honestly think they would have had a much better defence with him there, but they needed Adam in the midfield more.

[Alph]

How the hell is this panic buying?! This is the opposite, we've drawn out a list of targets and are methodically getting them one by one.

In other news the reason why Blackpool managed to get promoted was the signing of one Charlie Adam which they could do due to the sale of one Shaun Barker. I honestly think they would have had a much better defence with him there, but they needed Adam in the midfield more.

Panic buying isn't who the players are. Or even how quickly you get them. It's the content. I called it panic buying because the players SO FAR all lead to an approach that we're going to try and blitz teams with pace. That would be a bit of a one dimensional plan. A bit of a panic. Pearson, Ward, Robinson, Tyson, Waghorn, Ward. 6 players we've got/getting/bidded on that are all pretty much the same with odd differences. Maybe you could add McGuire.

Were we exposed for pace last season? Were there many instances when on messageboards etc people were saying we lack pace? Did you feel we lacked pace? So where has this sudden fondness for 100m sprinters come from? IMO it's a bit of a stab in the dark. A blind lunge for something that might work. Like we're going to forget last season and just start over with this approach. That's how it looks to me. If i'm wrong. I'll be glad.

It's not the players we're signing i don't like. It's the fact there's so many of them to answer a question we never got asked. And they appear so far to have little else to offer (Ward the exception) that we need.

I didn't say anything about Blackpool getting promoted. :confused:

[Albert]

Panic buying isn't who the players are. Or even how quickly you get them. It's the content. I called it panic buying because the players SO FAR all lead to an approach that we're going to try and blitz teams with pace. That would be a bit of a one dimensional plan. A bit of a panic. Pearson, Ward, Robinson, Tyson, Waghorn, Ward. 6 players we've got/getting/bidded on that are all pretty much the same with odd differences. Maybe you could add McGuire.

Were we exposed for pace last season? Were there many instances when on messageboards etc people were saying we lack pace? Did you feel we lacked pace? So where has this sudden fondness for 100m sprinters come from? IMO it's a bit of a stab in the dark. A blind lunge for something that might work. Like we're going to forget last season and just start over with this approach. That's how it looks to me. If i'm wrong. I'll be glad.

It's not the players we're signing i don't like. It's the fact there's so many of them to answer a question we never got asked. And they appear so far to have little else to offer (Ward the exception) that we need.

I didn't say anything about Blackpool getting promoted. :confused:

The blackpool thing was from earlier in the thread.

As for the new players I think you don't really know any of the players very well. Ward, Maguire and Waghorn aren't about raw pace. They are quick, but that's not their game. Ward in the role he played last season isn't the Tyson type player. Waghorn is a different customer all together as he has some strength and a lot of work rate as well as a decent finish. Tyson and Robinson are our pace signings. On top of that Shackell certainly isn't about pace and neither is Bryson. It seems you're just trying to find a reason why our business hasn't been good this season. Give them at least a match before saying that we had no other plans but to blitz oppositions, especially when we still have players coming in.

[SpankWFC]

Oh, and Barkers average

That's why we like him. When you've been eating **** sarnies a packet of crisps is quite a treat.

[Alph]

The blackpool thing was from earlier in the thread.

As for the new players I think you don't really know any of the players very well. Ward, Maguire and Waghorn aren't about raw pace. They are quick, but that's not their game. Ward in the role he played last season isn't the Tyson type player. Waghorn is a different customer all together as he has some strength and a lot of work rate as well as a decent finish. Tyson and Robinson are our pace signings. On top of that Shackell certainly isn't about pace and neither is Bryson. It seems you're just trying to find a reason why our business hasn't been good this season. Give them at least a match before saying that we had no other plans but to blitz oppositions, especially when we still have players coming in.

I've seen plenty of Ward and i've seen Waghorn when he's played v Derby aswell as on telly for Leicester.

I'm not saying their all the same exact players. But Ward (who i rate), Tyson, Robinson and Waghorn are all players who's number one attacking threat is pace. These are attacking players who all look to beat a defender using pace. Sure, Waghorn is pretty strong compared to Robinson and Ward..... but it's more of an additional attribute. His strength isn't his main weapon.

I admit i know nothing of McGuire. I'm thrilled with Shackell. And am looking forward to seeing Bryson.

But as for Tyson, Ward, Waghorn and Robinson........ what is the major difference between them as players? Ward played wide left a good number of times for Derby. Tyson has played out wide many, many times for Forest. They both use pace to beat defenders once the defender is back tracking. Both are hard workers. Ward is slightly better in the air. Tyson is faster. Other than that i don't see much difference in what they offer. Only to what level they offer it.

To a defender, they can all be treated as the same player.

But anyway, if we crack on with the LB, DM and 2 strikers....... i'll be feeling a lot more positives. Especially if one of those strikers can play (and more importantly ENJOYS playing) with his back to goal.

[duncanjwitham]

Waghorn is nothing like the other 3 - yes he's fairly mobile, but from what I've seen of him he likes to get the ball down and link play up, plus he's stronger and a decent finisher. As for the other 3, what's to say we can't play more than one of them? And we need options and cover as well. And surely anybody that watched us at any point last season could see that we were severely lacking in pace. In fact, I remember it being mentioned regularly on messagebaords, on radio derby commentary and phone-ins, in interviews with Clough, Metgod etc.

[Alph]

Waghorn likes to get the ball down and link play up. Is a decent finisher. How is that "nothing" like the others?

I was on the DET messageboard. Then this one. I don't listen to phone-ins though. But i don't remember anyone saying we "need" pace. Pace is a nice thing to have probably.

What i saw last season was last minute backs to the wall defending that backfired. Weak tackling midfielders out-jumped, out-muscled and out-thought offering poor protection to defenders. And a lack of any goal threat until Ward arrived.

I also say a combo of Green, Cywka,Commons, Kuqi and Bueno open teams up with some brilliant moves. None of them are fast. Cywka is the most mobile and he's not what you'd label a pace player.

Infact, judging by how we played right toward the end. And how we went long to Davies all the time, we needed a target man more than we needed a pacey striker.

The only time i thought pace was essential was when we sit on our own goalline in the 75th minute and try to counter. But judging by the goals we conceeded after the 80th min.....

Not saying a pacey player or two wont add something, just that there's a whole list of things we need more than pace first.

[RIMBAUD]

Waghorn likes to get the ball down and link play up. Is a decent finisher. How is that "nothing" like the others?

I was on the DET messageboard. Then this one. I don't listen to phone-ins though. But i don't remember anyone saying we "need" pace. Pace is a nice thing to have probably.

What i saw last season was last minute backs to the wall defending that backfired. Weak tackling midfielders out-jumped, out-muscled and out-thought offering poor protection to defenders. And a lack of any goal threat until Ward arrived.

I also say a combo of Green, Cywka,Commons, Kuqi and Bueno open teams up with some brilliant moves. None of them are fast. Cywka is the most mobile and he's not what you'd label a pace player.

Infact, judging by how we played right toward the end. And how we went long to Davies all the time, we needed a target man more than we needed a pacey striker.

The only time i thought pace was essential was when we sit on our own goalline in the 75th minute and try to counter. But judging by the goals we conceeded after the 80th min.....

Not saying a pacey player or two wont add something, just that there's a whole list of things we need more than pace first.

To be fair I think 'pace ' and the need for it throughout the team has been mentioned a number of times by NC in post match interviews.

(always sounded like a bit of an excuse to me.)

He's right though.

[james_ram]

A target man is useful if you are intending playing long ball, I don't think this is NCs intention.

Barcelona do pretty well without a target man.

Well they have Villa who sometimes plays as a target man, just not to head, running onto the ball.

[duncanjwitham]

We don't necessarily *need* a lumbering 6ft+ striker in the Steve Howard, Kuqi mould. We just need someone up front that can hold the ball up and put the ball in the net on a fairly regular basis. What's more important is that whoever we get, we need to play to their strengths. If we get Waghorn, we need to get the ball down and in to his feet. If we play Tyson up there, we need balls over the top for him to run onto. If we do get a 6ft+ striker in than we can mix it up a bit more.

[The Ram]

Our signings so far, are about average and nothing to get carried away with IMO.

The same people are running the Club and there appears to be more optimism, however signing 10 players and letting 10 go (eventually) is par for the course these days where footballers come and go.

20 years ago we were signing £1M players so this is not new.

Fans may be appeased so far with the buying, but Glick & Co's spin will not convince me until we do far better than we have done for the last 2 seasons! :mad:

[Albert]

I've seen plenty of Ward and i've seen Waghorn when he's played v Derby aswell as on telly for Leicester.

I'm not saying their all the same exact players. But Ward (who i rate), Tyson, Robinson and Waghorn are all players who's number one attacking threat is pace. These are attacking players who all look to beat a defender using pace. Sure, Waghorn is pretty strong compared to Robinson and Ward..... but it's more of an additional attribute. His strength isn't his main weapon.

I admit i know nothing of McGuire. I'm thrilled with Shackell. And am looking forward to seeing Bryson.

But as for Tyson, Ward, Waghorn and Robinson........ what is the major difference between them as players? Ward played wide left a good number of times for Derby. Tyson has played out wide many, many times for Forest. They both use pace to beat defenders once the defender is back tracking. Both are hard workers. Ward is slightly better in the air. Tyson is faster. Other than that i don't see much difference in what they offer. Only to what level they offer it.

To a defender, they can all be treated as the same player.

But anyway, if we crack on with the LB, DM and 2 strikers....... i'll be feeling a lot more positives. Especially if one of those strikers can play (and more importantly ENJOYS playing) with his back to goal.

Ward can actually shoot?

[ace-arun]

I think these players are decent. Jason Shackell is one of the best center backs in the championship. Fielding was good for us and he is better than Bywater. Then the other players can be a success given the chance. Nathan Tyson had a very good goalscoring rate at Wycombe. Then he comes to Forest and he gets played on the right wing for most of the time, apart from 07/08 when he played at CF and scored 12 goals.

[Leeds Ram]

yes but when he played up front for forest in league 1 he averaged less than 1 in 3, he won't score enough goals in this league to be a striker ace arun. On the wing he has scored 4 in around 60 appearances so again that is not good.

[Beanie]

You can't say yay or neigh to a signing based purely on media repuation, and their stats.

Bellamy or Grant Holt? Kris Boyd or Danny Graham? Peter Whittingham or Max Gradel?

lets just see how they get on, in a year I wouldn't be surprised if we were saying Tyson has been sensational. Can any Derby fan say they've seen Tyson give a bad performance, last 4 occasions against us he has looked formindable the ONLY reason people have reservations about this signing is his record, but his record at Derby is nought in nought that's a 100% goal rate, so let's see what the bloke can do in the prime of his career!

Surely thats a 0% goal record if hes never scored or played 1 in 1 would be 100% record

[duncanjwitham]

We don't know what the plan for Tyson is, whether he's going to be used as a lone striker, or one of the three off a lone striker, or even if we'll play a completely different formation altogether. If he does play as the first choice striker in a 4231, then I'll be happy enough if he gets 10 goals, and his workrate and pace create plenty of space and chances for the three behind him, and if those 3 can average 10 goals a piece as well, then we'll be fine.

[WorksopRam]

yes but when he played up front for forest in league 1 he averaged less than 1 in 3, he won't score enough goals in this league to be a striker ace arun. On the wing he has scored 4 in around 60 appearances so again that is not good.

Wait till he's played a few games for US, before you judge him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You stupid, doo-doo head.

[dcfcdavecov]

15 games lads.... 15 games!

Any view based on performances for a Championship side over the last three years would be a crazy thing to do.