Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Because this was small example of some potentially inaccurate reporting/statistics in one hospital, whereas with your hopeless chart, you were trying to claim that this showed some overall truth that there is nothing to worry about. I remember around a month ago you were constantly going on about "why are hospital numbers not going up" when people were concerned about the rise in infections. You didn't seem to realise that infections are a leading indicator for hospital admissions. Now hospital numbers are going up, you keep asking "why are the deaths not going up", failing to realise that hospital admissions are a leading indicators for deaths. And this is all happening against a backdrop of restrictions that you don't agree with. I hope you don't end up been the @smiths_tavrn of the 2nd wave. Yep agree with all that, however a few seem to pick the arguments with certain posts and not all. Are hospital admissions going up? last week one hospital had 1 case, this week 2 cases so they have dramatically doubled according to the MSM. I guess it’s what you believe or want to believe and if you believe killing our futures both economically and socially is worth it to protect the <1% of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, TexasRam said: Funny this didn’t get much response compared to the chart that was posted. Wonder why? In the first minute they said some hospitals were "back to where they were in March". I'm sure some are. In England, 3665 patients are currently in hospital vs 3097 when we went in to lockdown. In the 3rd minute "admissions are roughly were they were when we went into lockdown and deaths are also rising". This is true isn't it? Regarding Blackpool, what he actually said was "their Covid unit is full". 8 people in intensive care and another 75 in wards. The presenter at the hospital said "this is the first time the intensive care unit has been full since the first wave". You've twisted what the presented actually said to suit your agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Let's hope so. But we can only do that effectively if the hospitals don't end up full. They didn’t end up full on the “1st wave” but still we put on the back burner life saving treatment and analysis for others. Criminal the way we are handling all this, and again I stand by it to protect <1% of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said: In the first minute they said some hospitals were "back to where they were in March". I'm sure some are. In England, 3665 patients are currently in hospital vs 3097 when we went in to lockdown. In the 3rd minute "admissions are roughly were they were when we went into lockdown and deaths are also rising". This is true isn't it? Regarding Blackpool, what he actually said was "their Covid unit is full". 8 people in intensive care and another 75 in wards. The presenter at the hospital said "this is the first time the intensive care unit has been full since the first wave". You've twisted what the presented actually said to suit your agenda. Is presenting factual evidence twisting something ? Oh I must be mistaken what true means ? Please enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, Albert said: In other words, you're trying to deny the reality of the situation, because it makes you uncomfortable. Nope, different countries, different set of circumstances. We're going around in circles. 37 minutes ago, Albert said: Hence we've discussed a myriad of other countries that have achieved the same or better than Australia, while being global hubs as well. And there are a number of other countries that haven't coped as well. Its also as if different countries have a different set of challenges and can't be naively grouped together to claim a point is fact. We're continuing to go around in circles. 37 minutes ago, Albert said: It's not attrition, it's really just you repeating the same, tired defeated points again and again, hoping that this time they gain traction, while desperately trying to distract from the discussion. If this were not true, you'd have dropped the 'global hub' line the first time that it was shown that other examples of 'global hubs' had indeed managed to control the virus as well. It is attrition though. You disingenuously claim my points are tired and defeated despite doing exactly the same - here is a list of 'global hubs' where it has worked. Yawn. Cos everyone knows Vietnam etc operate just like the UK. Guess what? We're going around in circles. Again 37 minutes ago, Albert said: The fact that the line for you have remained that 'well, the UK just isn't capable of that' truly does speak volumes about how strong the case for controlling the disease actually is. Given you've already said you've had your final word though, I guess this is where our discussion ends, unless you were lying of course. Nope, its to do with the myriad of challenges the UK (and others, especially in the EU such as France etc) face that others don't. Different countries have different hurdles they have to contend with leaving some better equipped than others to keep a lid on covid. I get the feeling this has been discussed ad nauseam... 37 minutes ago, Albert said: It's not attrition, it's really just you repeating the same, tired defeated points again and again, hoping that this time they gain traction, while desperately trying to distract from the discussion. If this were not true, you'd have dropped the 'global hub' line the first time that it was shown that other examples of 'global hubs' had indeed managed to control the virus as well. Certainly seems like attrition to me. Has the discussion moved any further forwards or are we just going around in circles with you calling my argument tired and defeated? This despite the pandemic still ongoing, glossing over various links I have posted and repeating again and again that countries such as Vietnam and Taiwan are global hubs on par with UK. Something, something, circles, something... 37 minutes ago, Albert said: Not sure how I was 'triggered', but it seems you need to consider it that way for whatever reason. TBH I can't remember your reply, only that you made one when I previously pointed out that the conversation was going around circles and despite trying to back out, you kept coming back repeating yourself. As you have done again. These last few replies were not warranted, didn't further the discussion and our conversation is becoming increasingly petty. Despite saying I wouldn't reply, I guess I felt the need to point out where the conversation - for us both - has stalled. Enjoy the rest of your day, our 'debate' has run its course ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 minute ago, TexasRam said: Is presenting factual evidence twisting something ? Oh I must be mistaken what true means ? Please enlighten me Your claim: "10 pm ITV news stated that Blackpool Victoria Hospital is now full of COVID patients." They absolutely did not state this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Your claim: "10 pm ITV news stated that Blackpool Victoria Hospital is now full of COVID patients." They absolutely did not state this I didn’t I said “they stated their allocated beds for Covid where full”. So don’t twist my words to fit your agenda against me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, TexasRam said: I didn’t I said “they stated their allocated beds for Covid where full”. So don’t twist my words to fit your agenda against me Must have been a different TexasRam then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, GboroRam said: I think we've failed to give a clear concise message during our long lockdown, and allowed too much freedom for people while at the same time trying to stop them from doing things in public. When other countries were putting patrols on the street to prevent people from roaming around, we were allowing exercise walks and trips to crowded beaches and beauty spots. If we'd just made lockdown more stringent, more hard - maybe we would have reduced the virus down to a manageable level. If we hadn't spaffed money on a failed test and trace system, leaving us playing catch-up to get a working solution in, maybe we could have managed the second wave better as we'd have less to catch and be better prepared to catch them as they popped up. If we had got testing up to the levels it should have been, maybe we would have had capacity to handle demand, rather than failing to test adequately - resulting in infected people still being in the population. Now we seem to be in a halfway house of part lockdowns for some people and full lockdowns for others, in an attempt to allow as much economic activity as possible yet stopping the virus where it's bad. It just seems destined to fail doing it piecemeal. While factories and offices and schools and universities are still operating full of people, we'll not be able to bring down the numbers. And until we have better testing, I'm not sure what we can do. Testing seems to be the key to getting things under control. If one Chinese city can plan to test 9m people, why are we still testing such comparatively low numbers of people? All correct IMO, but that's the problem. Your post displays both the cause and effect of our own actions back in March-June That's exactly why the constant assertion that the only way forward for the UK is a complete, harsh, lockdown at this point is flawed - it had to be in March or not at all - and why some people "don't care what Australia did" or what other countries who've more successfully handled it did. It's comparing countries who didn't make such a rooster up of their initial reaction and applying the same logic to one which did, but it doesn't seem to take into account that we've already damaged ourselves beyond the point of others, or that doing now what we should have done in March would create truly irreparable damage well beyond that suffered by the economy of the others being compared. If we hadn't made so many glaring errors along the way our economy wouldn't be in anywhere near as bad a state, we'd have things more under control and the prospect of a lockdown for 2 weeks here and there wouldn't be so daunting. As it is though, a full lockdown (which would probably have to last at least a couple of months, maybe more?) could well be the death knell of certain aspects of this country and the future prospects for nearly everyone in it. Sorry, got a bit dramatic there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Must have been a different TexasRam then... See the line below......hey there’s only one @TexasRam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, TexasRam said: See the line below......hey there’s only one @TexasRam Yes, you said they lied and then pointed out the the truth, to catch them in their lie. GhostOfClough pointed out that they never said the words you attributed to them which were wrong. What they stated was the truth, which you posted below, and claimed they said something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, maxjam said: Nope, different countries, different set of circumstances. We're going around in circles. So, what you're saying is that even though there are countries that are denser, global hubs, all vastly different in their own ways, none of that matters because... well, different countries? What makes the UK so special that it can't control the virus? 17 minutes ago, maxjam said: And there are a number of other countries that haven't coped as well. Its also as if different countries have a different set of challenges and can't be naively grouped together to claim a point is fact. We're continuing to go around in circles. It's not naive to compare different efforts, what is naive is to work on an assumption of: 'well, it went poorly, so it was destined to'. 17 minutes ago, maxjam said: It is attrition though. You disingenuously claim my points are tired and defeated despite doing exactly the same - here is a list of 'global hubs' where it has worked. Yawn. Cos everyone knows Vietnam etc operate just like the UK. Guess what? We're going around in circles. Again I didn't list Vietnam as a global hub. You still haven't answered how those listed were not valid comparisons, and have subsisted on ad hoc deflections. 17 minutes ago, maxjam said: Nope, its to do with the myriad of challenges the UK (and others, especially in the EU such as France etc) face that others don't. Different countries have different hurdles they have to contend with leaving some better equipped than others to keep a lid on covid. I get the feeling this has been discussed ad nauseam... What hurdles do you think they have that others don't? It's not population density, it's not being 'global hubs', it's not how their economy is structured either. This is just you arguing that 'well, because they failed, it was destined that it would happen'. 17 minutes ago, maxjam said: Certainly seems like attrition to me. Has the discussion moved any further forwards or are we just going around in circles with you calling my argument tired and defeated? This despite the pandemic still ongoing, glossing over various links I have posted and repeating again and again that countries such as Vietnam and Taiwan are global hubs on par with UK. Something, something, circles, something... I've not glossed over links you've posted. If you feel I have, I am happy to go back over and discuss a previous one. When discussing global hubs, I pointed out Taiwan (which indeed does have a massive amount of international travel per year), Hong Kong (which acts as it's own country), Korea and Singapore as key examples. Equally, you've continued to gloss over a key point time and time again, and that is that international travel has fallen off a cliff since the start of the pandemic. This goes along with the question of why, if 'being a global hub' was the driver behind the UK's issues with controlling the virus that they haven't made the choice to shut that all down. As discussed earlier, Australia's airline business per capita was larger, but the country elected to take that hit for the good of their people. You're arguing that the UK hasn't, but haven't said anything on this matter beyond that. 17 minutes ago, maxjam said: TBH I can't remember your reply, only that you made one when I previously pointed out that the conversation was going around circles and despite trying to back out, you kept coming back repeating yourself. As you have done again. Yet, here you are back again. 17 minutes ago, maxjam said: These last few replies were not warranted, didn't further the discussion and our conversation is becoming increasingly petty. Despite saying I wouldn't reply, I guess I felt the need to point out where the conversation - for us both - has stalled. Enjoy the rest of your day, our 'debate' has run its course ? I don't feel it's 'stalled' at all at this point. There are a number of points that you are point blank refusing to answer, and have done so for a while. It seems you're not really trying to 'back out', but rather 'back away' from those points without answering them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Just now, TexasRam said: See the line below......hey there’s only one @TexasRam You just claimed you never said "10 pm ITV news stated that Blackpool Victoria Hospital is now full of COVID patients." I listened to the entire Blackpool section of the ITV news and that is not what was said. They actually said "their Covid unit is full". This is was relating to the intensive care unit which has a capacity of 8. They also had 75 patients in another ward(s). The presenter at the hospital said "this is the first time the intensive care unit has been full since the first wave". At no point did they say the hospital was full. Even your claim that their allocated covid beds were full was wrong. The 8 covid intensive care beds were full, but they alos have additional beds for those not requiring intensive care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Do the young kids call this #owned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said: They actually said "their Covid unit is full". This is was relating to the intensive care unit which has a capacity of 8 Which is exactly what I said, all 8 beds. Scaremongering at its finest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Just now, TexasRam said: Which is exactly what I said, all 8 beds. Scaremongering at its finest But they have more beds dedicated to Covid than just the 8 for intensive care. They had 75 other people on beds in other wards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 minute ago, TexasRam said: Which is exactly what I said, all 8 beds. Scaremongering at its finest Wow. Small hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Yes, you said they lied and then pointed out the the truth, to catch them in their lie. GhostOfClough pointed out that they never said the words you attributed to them which were wrong. What they stated was the truth, which you posted below, and claimed they said something different. I know exactly what I said, I didn’t say they lied because they didn’t but the way it was presented showed the extremes the MSM will go to continue to whip up the mass hysteria that we are seeing and reacting too in the UK. That was my whole point, cheers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Coconut said: All correct IMO, but that's the problem. Your post displays both the cause and effect of our own actions back in March-June That's exactly why the constant assertion that the only way forward for the UK is a complete, harsh, lockdown at this point is flawed - it had to be in March or not at all - and why some people "don't care what Australia did" or what other countries who've more successfully handled it did. It's comparing countries who didn't make such a rooster up of their initial reaction and applying the same logic to one which did, but it doesn't seem to take into account that we've already damaged ourselves beyond the point of others, or that doing now what we should have done in March would create truly irreparable damage well beyond that suffered by the economy of the others being compared. If we hadn't made so many glaring errors along the way our economy wouldn't be in anywhere near as bad a state, we'd have things more under control and the prospect of a lockdown for 2 weeks here and there wouldn't be so daunting. As it is though, a full lockdown (which would probably have to last at least a couple of months, maybe more?) could well be the death knell of certain aspects of this country and the future prospects for nearly everyone in it. Sorry, got a bit dramatic there! You're not wrong about the response, but at the same time, it isn't too late to try and regain control. 50% of the point in bringing up where I am is that one of the states, Victoria, did really mess things up. They had things under control, then messed up their hotel quarantine scheme, while opening up too early. This was followed up with haphazard contact tracing, and ultimately things spiraled out of control. Rather than putting up the white flag, however, they went for lockdowns again, doubled down on their testing and tracing efforts, and did the work to get things back under control. They are in the process of easing restrictions, but are very cautious of getting those cases back to as close to zero as possible while doing so. The issue with bits and pieces lockdowns is that they will just keep coming, and will generate more resentment and uncertainty, which will further depress the economy. The second wave will, eventually, overload the hospitals if left to burn as it is, so whether people agree philosophically with lockdowns at this point, they are coming. To institute something like a Swedish model, there are a lot of changes that people don't anticipate that would be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 minute ago, GboroRam said: Wow. Small hospital. let me know when it sinks in, they said their beds for Covid patients were full (8 of them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.