The Politics Thread 2020

[maxjam]

33 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Answering my own question, because nobody else is interested - I'd pitch Boris's Tories in the blue, close to the centre.

I'd pitch Corbyn well into the green.

I think those people who claim Labour are too left wing want Sir Keir to pitch Labour in the green close to the centre.

Why do we need two political parties mostly taking the same ground?

If you go to far left or right you become a party of activists - not only will you never achieve power you enable the opposition to do whatever they want.

If you stay closer to the middle ground you will appeal to far more people - not only will you increase your chances of gaining power, you will provide better opposition to limit the power of the government. 

Labour have been in opposition for what 10 years now?  Is it better to gain broad support and nudge the country in the way you want or campaign for a radical shift in policy but then watch on as the Tories are given free reign to do whatever?

Evolution or Revolution.

[Eddie]

49 minutes ago, Norman said:

Not the point I asked. But then I forgive you in your old age, Biden. 

I mean, Eddie. 

Nice to see you respecting your elders and betters, Norman.

[Eddie]

5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If you go to far left or right you become a party of activists - not only will you never achieve power you enable the opposition to do whatever they want.

If you stay closer to the middle ground you will appeal to far more people - not only will you increase your chances of gaining power, you will provide better opposition to limit the power of the government. 

Labour have been in opposition for what 10 years now?  Is it better to gain broad support and nudge the country in the way you want or campaign for a radical shift in policy but then watch on as the Tories are given free reign to do whatever?

Evolution or Revolution.

Alternatively, you ignore all debate and just come up with a natty, catchy slogan like "Get Brexit Done" or "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad".

[Norman]

11 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Alternatively, you ignore all debate and just come up with a natty, catchy slogan like "Get Brexit Done" or "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad".

So why are Labour not able to do so. 

'for the Marxists, not the many' 

'we don't put our feet in your shoes, we put our feet in the wrong shoes' 

Etc. 

[maxjam]

13 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Alternatively, you ignore all debate and just come up with a natty, catchy slogan like "Get Brexit Done" or "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad".

Well fancy that, a simple slogan designed to engage the 52% of the country that voted to leave.

Meanwhile on the other side, you have Jo Swinson unable to define the word 'woman' and Jeremy Corbyn tweeting he goes by he/him pronouns on the eve of the election.  Both extreme minority causes at best generating far more negative wtf are they on about reactions that positive.

[ariotofmyown]

6 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If you go to far left or right you become a party of activists - not only will you never achieve power you enable the opposition to do whatever they want.

If you stay closer to the middle ground you will appeal to far more people - not only will you increase your chances of gaining power, you will provide better opposition to limit the power of the government. 

Labour have been in opposition for what 10 years now?  Is it better to gain broad support and nudge the country in the way you want or campaign for a radical shift in policy but then watch on as the Tories are given free reign to do whatever?

Evolution or Revolution.

Good point when you step back and look at those 10 years. I don't think many people would claim that the Tories have either done a good job or been popular during those years. If anything, they've been pretty chaotic. And during all that time and multiple elections, they've clung onto power and got their biggest majority in the most recent election.

Labour and the other opposition parties have not done a very good job at convincing people in the middle to vote for them. In the first past the post system, really feels like the opposition parties need to come together more and offer a coherent voice. I think Starmer will be much better at doing this than Corbyn ever was.

The Tories were able to see off the threat of Ukip splitting their vote with the EU referendum, which backfired for the likes of Cameron and Osboure, who were socially liberal but far right economically.

If Starmer can continue as I hope, I think the scene will be set for a Labour (plus SNP/others) majority at the next election. But unfortunately, the scene will be a post-Brexit and post-Corona mess. The Tories have lost most their competent cabinet ministers and the public will grow tired of some of the really weak characters we have been left with.  Johnson might try and bring some of them back in and sack off the Brexiteers he has filled his cabinet with.

The electorate don't seem to care about policies any more, bar one easy to remember slogan. Labour just need to come up with something and keep repeating it, but ideally with a bit of detail behind it too. Something on the NHS might work, but Johnson will probably do this first.

[Eddie]

7 minutes ago, Norman said:

So why are Labour not able to do so. 

'for the Marxists, not the many' 

'we don't put our feet in your shoes, we put our feet in the wrong shoes' 

Etc. 

 

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Well fancy that, a simple slogan designed to engage the 52% of the country that voted to leave.

Meanwhile on the other side, you have Jo Swinson unable to define the word 'woman' and Jeremy Corbyn tweeting he goes by he/him pronouns on the eve of the election.  Both extreme minority causes at best generating far more negative wtf are they on about reactions that positive.

You both seem to think that I am a Labour supporter - possibly because you are currently seeing things through polarised eyes. If somebody disagrees with you on one thing, then it is assumed that they also disagree with you on just about everything else. Everything isn't black and white, no matter how much we would wish it to be. We seem to have moved away as a country from compromise in any way, shape or form, which probably explains why this thread is the way it is. If something is demonstrably false or stupid, then the argument is ignored and in its place, "Whataboutism" is substituted.

[ariotofmyown]

16 minutes ago, Norman said:

So why are Labour not able to do so. 

'for the Marxists, not the many' 

'we don't put our feet in your shoes, we put our feet in the wrong shoes' 

Etc. 

"Protecting your jobs by not pursuing a no deal Brexit that even the racist Brexiteering liars didn't mention"

Yeah, too wordy.

[maxjam]

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

 

You both seem to think that I am a Labour supporter - possibly because you are currently seeing things through polarised eyes. If somebody disagrees with you on one thing, then it is assumed that they also disagree with you on just about everything else. Everything isn't black and white, no matter how much we would wish it to be. We seem to have moved away as a country from compromise in any way, shape or form, which probably explains why this thread is the way it is. If something is demonstrably false or stupid, then the argument is ignored and in its place, "Whataboutism" is substituted.

Where did I say you were a Labour supporter? 

@GboroRam asked a question, I put forwards my argument.  You replied with an Animal Farm analogy, I countered with the lefts abuse of language.  I thought that was how discussions worked?  

The only thing we seem to have moved away from is being able to talk to each other.

[GB SPORTS]

On ‎25‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 22:22, Highgate said:

People are criticizing Trump for what he did right now.  For the bizarre nature of the press briefing where he seriously suggested we spend time researching injecting disinfectant directly into patients. Not to mention him brazenly lying the following day and claiming it was a sarcastic comment on his part.  

That's what he is being criticized for, not simply for 'being Trump'. 

Ok, in your opinion was what he said at the press briefing ignorant and dangerous or not?  Yes or No.    And was he lying the following day when he said it was merely a sarcastic comment to a reporter?   Yes or No

Don't like the man, but i did think he was being sarcastic at the time.

 

Maybe i am giving him too much credit but i have similar sense of sarcastic humour and try and wind up (friendly) people that way.

[GboroRam]

34 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Well fancy that, a simple slogan designed to engage the 52% of the country that voted to leave.

Meanwhile on the other side, you have Jo Swinson unable to define the word 'woman' and Jeremy Corbyn tweeting he goes by he/him pronouns on the eve of the election.  Both extreme minority causes at best generating far more negative wtf are they on about reactions that positive.

I thought you would approve?

[maxjam]

26 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I thought you would approve?

Its his right to say what he wants.  Its also other peoples right to roll their eyes when they hear it.

[Norman]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

 

You both seem to think that I am a Labour supporter - possibly because you are currently seeing things through polarised eyes. If somebody disagrees with you on one thing, then it is assumed that they also disagree with you on just about everything else. Everything isn't black and white, no matter how much we would wish it to be. We seem to have moved away as a country from compromise in any way, shape or form, which probably explains why this thread is the way it is. If something is demonstrably false or stupid, then the argument is ignored and in its place, "Whataboutism" is substituted.

Give over. You said it was easy to win an election on slogans. I asked why Labour didn't. Stop confusing emotion with fact. 

[Wolfie]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

If Starmer can continue as I hope, I think the scene will be set for a Labour (plus SNP/others) majority at the next election.

Bloody hope not. Ian Blackford holding the balance of power ?

[GboroRam]

5 minutes ago, Norman said:

Give over. You said it was easy to win an election on slogans. I asked why Labour didn't. Stop confusing emotion with fact. 

I don't think "Land, Bread, Peace" will have the same draw these days.

[Norman]

6 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I don't think "Land, Bread, Peace" will have the same draw these days.

Slogans aren't so easy then.

Just like deciding whether or not Trump is responsible for an economy, or his advisors who he sacks are. 

Or whether an economy rumbles on regardless of decisions taken. Its far too complex for decisions to change outcomes.

Dumb slogans, dumb economics, dumb working class people falling for dumb economics allowed by being elected on dumb slogans. 

[FindernRam]

For the many not the few!

Should have worked but I'm not sure the majority of people feel they are part of the downtrodden masses these days.

[ariotofmyown]

15 minutes ago, Norman said:

Slogans aren't so easy then.

Just like deciding whether or not Trump is responsible for an economy, or his advisors who he sacks are. 

Or whether an economy rumbles on regardless of decisions taken. Its far too complex for decisions to change outcomes.

Dumb slogans, dumb economics, dumb working class people falling for dumb economics allowed by being elected on dumb slogans. 

You forgot to add in dumb 'racist' working class like you usually do.

[ariotofmyown]

15 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

For the many not the few!

Should have worked but I'm not sure the majority of people feel they are part of the downtrodden masses these days.

"We are all in it together"

"The Big Society"

"Why not give it to the NHS"

Winning slogans that were all untrue.

[FindernRam]

I remember as a teenager, at the dawn of computing reading a SciFi short story:

Democracy wasn't working well, too complicated and too costly, so the computer was tasked with identifying the perfect voter to represent everyone.

Using various algorithms, too left too right, too rich too poor, it gradually ruled out everyone until just one person was left. The computer said well as you represent everybody we don't need a government just tell me what to do and I'll make it happen!

So the perfect voter said Goo Goo Goo! And filled its nappy!

 

Actually I made the last bit up. I can't remember the actual ending