Build from the back

[oldtimeram]

 

Clough philosophy. Build your team from the back

The first thing we need to do is get a proper goalkeeper in my opinion 

[Edtheram]

If we want to "Build from the back" and be successful we need to look at how Leeds moved the ball on Saturday, they maybe make 3 sideways passes but always look for that forward pass and move the ball at pace through the lines. Us on the other hand are slow and predictable (Roos to Keogh, Keogh to Clarke, Clarke to Keogh, Keogh to Hudds, Hudds back to Keogh, Keogh to Roos and a Roos hoof to Marriott). Midfield dont offer enough but the back 2 (Keogh and Clarke) have to look forward quicker and do things first or second touch instead of taking 4 or 5.

Liverpool and Man City are both possession based attacking sides who play from the back but they dont over play and are both always looking to attack, they move the ball quickly and with purpose. We seem to just think making a number of sideways passes is good possession. How often do we play out from the back and lose the ball in a dangerous place? it happened on Saturday in the first half loads. We haven't got the players like you say but midfield have to be braver as do the 2 CB's. 

[FindernRam]

We still seem to be stuck in the sideways, sideways, sideways, lose it mode that we have done for several years under several mangers, with lots of players.

The common denominator in the players is our Captain, but he is the one usually looking to burst forward.

The other factor is that we have not had the midfield moment to  provide an outlet.

Until we do we need to play down the channels and give our forwards something to chase

[BathRam72]

1 hour ago, Edtheram said:

If we want to "Build from the back" and be successful we need to look at how Leeds moved the ball on Saturday, they maybe make 3 sideways passes but always look for that forward pass and move the ball at pace through the lines. Us on the other hand are slow and predictable (Roos to Keogh, Keogh to Clarke, Clarke to Keogh, Keogh to Hudds, Hudds back to Keogh, Keogh to Roos and a Roos hoof to Marriott). Midfield dont offer enough but the back 2 (Keogh and Clarke) have to look forward quicker and do things first or second touch instead of taking 4 or 5.

Liverpool and Man City are both possession based attacking sides who play from the back but they dont over play and are both always looking to attack, they move the ball quickly and with purpose. We seem to just think making a number of sideways passes is good possession. How often do we play out from the back and lose the ball in a dangerous place? it happened on Saturday in the first half loads. We haven't got the players like you say but midfield have to be braver as do the 2 CB's. 

 

14 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

We still seem to be stuck in the sideways, sideways, sideways, lose it mode that we have done for several years under several mangers, with lots of players.

The common denominator in the players is our Captain, but he is the one usually looking to burst forward.

The other factor is that we have not had the midfield moment to  provide an outlet.

Until we do we need to play down the channels and give our forwards something to chase

I might have missed the OP point, but I am pretty sure that you two have definitely missed the point.

 

 

I stand to be corrected

[oldtimeram]

I take the points being made.  We need a reliable goalkeeper and then a good back 4 that as has been mentioned, can play it out with confidence and purpose.  The players need to be good enough and confident enough to do that. That then brings us on to the midfield, which in my opinion needs quite a lot of work too.

Work in progress, but as I say let's get it right at the back first and a new goalkeeper is paramount in my opinion before anything 

If the back four don't have confidence in the guy behind them it all fails  

[FindernRam]

I agree that our keeper is not inspiring and in part I blame the coaches, but responding to the OP my assumption was we had control of the ball, and it was making its way forward. The keeper only has a short roll out or pass to the back 4, then the sideways starts.

Its not the keepers fault at that point, so in terms of playing out from the back I respectfully disagree with OP that that's the source of the problem. 

Whether Roos or Hamer is as good as Green, Boulton, Shilton, Poom, no they are not. 

[Ghost of Clough]

Just now, FindernRam said:

I agree that our keeper is not inspiring and in part I blame the coaches, but responding to the OP my assumption was we had control of the ball, and it was making its way forward. The keeper only has a short roll out or pass to the back 4, then the sideways starts.

Its not the keepers fault at that point, so in terms of playing out from the back I respectfully disagree with OP that that's the source of the problem. 

Whether Roos or Hamer is as good as Green, Boulton, Shilton, Poom, no they are not. 

OP says "build from the back" - as in recruit GK first, then defence, and so on. You're talking about the style of play

[oldtimeram]

4 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

I agree that our keeper is not inspiring and in part I blame the coaches, but responding to the OP my assumption was we had control of the ball, and it was making its way forward. The keeper only has a short roll out or pass to the back 4, then the sideways starts.

Its not the keepers fault at that point, so in terms of playing out from the back I respectfully disagree with OP that that's the source of the problem. 

Whether Roos or Hamer is as good as Green, Boulton, Shilton, Poom, no they are not. 

I was saying we should build the team from the back and the goalkeeper is the first line of defence 

[FindernRam]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

OP says "build from the back" - as in recruit GK first, then defence, and so on. You're talking about the style of play

OK I probably misread his intent! In which case I totally agree with the great man's philosophy 

How many seasons to buy a new keeper, 2 centre halves, 3 or 4 midfielders and 2 strikers with our limited resources?

[GenBr]

If Carson comes back from his vacation in Manchester he is fine from a saving the ball point of view and he definitely provides more confidence to his defenders. Previously I thought his distribution was poor until I've seen what we do this season - its like the GK and all back four are specifically instructed to make suicide passes wherever possible - look for the guy who is under most pressure and pass to him. 

However I assume the reason Roos is in the first team is that he is a lot cheaper than Carson from a wages perspective. I would imagine Carson will be joining the exodus of high wage players from our club.

59 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

OK I probably misread his intent! In which case I totally agree with the great man's philosophy 

How many seasons to buy a new keeper, 2 centre halves, 3 or 4 midfielders and 2 strikers with our limited resources?

We only need one centre half and maybe another as backup. Midfield could maybe do with a couple of reinforcements, but Bielik (or Huddlestone) and I imagine Rooney as well will be filling at least two of the starting midfield spots. We definitely don't need any strikers. If we want to keep playing 4-3-3 we definitely need more wingers though.

[oldtimeram]

1 hour ago, FindernRam said:

OK I probably misread his intent! In which case I totally agree with the great man's philosophy 

How many seasons to buy a new keeper, 2 centre halves, 3 or 4 midfielders and 2 strikers with our limited resources?

I'm not so great, but thanks for the compliment

[May Contain Nuts]

36 minutes ago, GenBr said:

If Carson comes back from his vacation in Manchester he is fine from a saving the ball point of view

He certainly wasn't last season.

In fact as little as I rate Roos, he's already made quite a few important saves this season that Carson may not have, and as yet (although possibly just through luck and being bailed out by a defender on the line) hasn't directly cost us any points.

 

[GenBr]

2 hours ago, Coconut said:

He certainly wasn't last season.

In fact as little as I rate Roos, he's already made quite a few important saves this season that Carson may not have, and as yet (although possibly just through luck and being bailed out by a defender on the line) hasn't directly cost us any points.

 

I don't agree that Carson was particularly poor last season. He was worse than the season prior, but he was fantastic in that season.

Roos puts himself and his defence in trouble most of the time by always taking one touch too many before releasing the ball or passing to a man under pressure. Its his distribution letting him down at the moment for the most part and if he cant distribute better than Carson he isn't better than Carson.

[ram59]

Goalkeeper distribution has changed dramatically this season. 

Previously a keeper playing out short had to accurately find a player on the edge of the box or just a bit further out. With the new rules he can play it 1 yard to an outfield player who then has a little bit of space and time to use it. 

This negates one of Carson's faults, however, I'd love to find another Poom, who could command his box. 

[Ghost of Clough]

15 hours ago, GenBr said:

I don't agree that Carson was particularly poor last season. He was worse than the season prior, but he was fantastic in that season.

Roos puts himself and his defence in trouble most of the time by always taking one touch too many before releasing the ball or passing to a man under pressure. Its his distribution letting him down at the moment for the most part and if he cant distribute better than Carson he isn't better than Carson.

Very poor wumming attempt... must try to be a bit more subtle next time.

How many times has Roos' distribution directly cost us a goal this season? Both were roughly on par as shot stoppers last season (both 2.3 saves per game), and Roos has improved this season (up from 2.3 to 2.6 saves per game.
Anyone can complete a short pass under no pressure, but Roos is much more comfortable under pressure. That's why he takes an extra touch, and why he still plays a short pass, whereas Carson would go with a clearance / long ball up field. It's not just passing though.
Roos has much better control which is vital against a high pressing team, considering we want to play out from the back. It means after that first touch, we're more likely to see a pass rather than a clearance / long ball.

So he's saving more shots than Carson, better with the ball than Carson, and allows us to play the way Cocu wants us to play better than Carson

[oldtimeram]

Where's Carson gone ......Downton again?