The State of English Referees

[Sith Happens]

On 3/31/2018 at 11:05, StockholmRam said:

After watching Boro v Wolves last night I'm not surprised. 

Only just got round to watching this, dont see the ref did a lot wrong to me. Thats just from the highlights though and the key decisions.

 

[jagerbob]

C

On 01/04/2018 at 12:08, Millenniumram said:

What on Earth do clubs and foreign coaches have to do with it?! Im saying that the FA needs to put better training in for our own referees, because as the fact none of them are going to the World Cup proves, our officials simply aren’t of a good enough standard. It’s nothing to do with foreigners at all, though they have proved to be better in the main than our home grown coaches and managers.

Changing the premier league into some kind of world super league given that many of the best players around the world play there, gives the fans the audacity to think our referreeing standards should be world class and a step ahead of every other league in the world.

That was my point.

[Millenniumram]

11 minutes ago, jagerbob said:

C

Changing the premier league into some kind of world super league given that many of the best players around the world play there, gives the fans the audacity to think our referreeing standards should be world class and a step ahead of every other league in the world.

That was my point.

Well... they should be? Given the money that’s in the game, surely some needs to be invested in training our officials better? Should be no reason why Italy’s officials are better for example, the stakes our just as High here. They don’t have to be a step above, but they should be on the same level, and clearly Fifa doesn’t think they are.

[The Key Club King]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:39, Millenniumram said:

Well... they should be? Given the money that’s in the game, surely some needs to be invested in training our officials better? Should be no reason why Italy’s officials are better for example, the stakes our just as High here. They don’t have to be a step above, but they should be on the same level, and clearly Fifa doesn’t think they are.

The reason we do not have a ref is because Mark Clattenburg was our ref on the shortlist and as he left for Saudi Arabia he was no longer eligible. The FA were not allowed to put a replacement forward, so we had no-one eligible. Italian refs are not noticeably better, and the FA pays EPL refs as much as anywhere else in Europe and has invested heavily in their training. 

Our refs are not significantly worse or better than anywhere else and the reason why many decisions are wrong is because all the players cheat. All of them. Without exception. If you have 22 players, subs, coaches and a crowd trying to pull the wool over the ref's  eyes, then don't expect flawless decision making. 

The fact that watching things back through VAR still does not get decisions right shows how difficult it is. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

6 hours ago, The Key Club King said:

The reason we do not have a ref is because Mark Clattenburg was our ref on the shortlist and as he left for Saudi Arabia he was no longer eligible. The FA were not allowed to put a replacement forward, so we had no-one eligible. Italian refs are not noticeably better, and the FA pays EPL refs as much as anywhere else in Europe and has invested heavily in their training. 

Our refs are not significantly worse or better than anywhere else and the reason why many decisions are wrong is because all the players cheat. All of them. Without exception. If you have 22 players, subs, coaches and a crowd trying to pull the wool over the ref's  eyes, then don't expect flawless decision making. 

The fact that watching things back through VAR still does not get decisions right shows how difficult it is. 

Apart from Collina. He was the daddy!

[Mafiabob]

Some of the usual hyperbole from folk who ain’t a clue had to try and control a football match...... try doing so, don’t get me wrong we could do things so much better..... but some will always see an official as the one to hate. 

Mark my words one day in this country a referee will be killed by someone angry at them. It’s ok though, we will still listen to the Football pundits and believe their every word and take as gospel

[Sexydadbod]

4 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Some of the usual hyperbole from folk who ain’t a clue had to try and control a football match...... try doing so, don’t get me wrong we could do things so much better..... but some will always see an official as the one to hate. 

Mark my words one day in this country a referee will be killed by someone angry at them. It’s ok though, we will still listen to the Football pundits and believe their every word and take as gospel

That’s why VAR needs to be implemented fully to help reduce the rate of poor decisions. People say that it slows the game down but I bet fans would rather that than a poor refereeing decision costing them in the game.

[Mafiabob]

8 minutes ago, McLovin said:

That’s why VAR needs to be implemented fully to help reduce the rate of poor decisions. People say that it slows the game down but I bet fans would rather that than a poor refereeing decision costing them in the game.

What about a poor decision by a striker? Does that affect the game? Or a poor defence mistake?

Think most miss my point..... the one who gets it in the neck is the ref if he makes a wrong decision, they are fair game granted..... but we expect refs to be robots when they have two eyes like everybody else.....

They are human.... they love th me game just as much as anybody. 

Mic them up. 

[Sexydadbod]

13 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

What about a poor decision by a striker? Does that affect the game? Or a poor defence mistake?

Think most miss my point..... the one who gets it in the neck is the ref if he makes a wrong decision, they are fair game granted..... but we expect refs to be robots when they have two eyes like everybody else.....

They are human.... they love th me game just as much as anybody. 

Mic them up. 

Oh of course. I just think that referees should be given as much assistance as possible. We will be less likely to talk about them if they are given support in the form of technology. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Its just a matter of lack of respect. It used to be that without question the referees decision is final. Right or wrong the impartial decision should be respected. I dislike punditry immensely. If they have to exist at all I would much prefer it that referees were left alone and all their nonsense was directed at the players and managers performance. I don't know why FIFA or the FA or whoever don't make it an immediate yellow card for disrespecting a decision. Some of the foul mouthed rants at Refs are completely out of order.

[Sith Happens]

On 4/6/2018 at 22:10, Mafiabob said:

Some of the usual hyperbole from folk who ain’t a clue had to try and control a football match...... try doing so, don’t get me wrong we could do things so much better..... but some will always see an official as the one to hate. 

Mark my words one day in this country a referee will be killed by someone angry at them. It’s ok though, we will still listen to the Football pundits and believe their every word and take as gospel

Maybe not killed but attacked, punched, seriously hurt etc. That is why I don't think we do enough to punish pitch invaders. They get a few months ban, or life time bans, depending on the club I think, but for me I think anyone invading a pitch should be considered to be a danger to either the officials or the players and the punishment severe enough to put them off doing it. Its ok to say 'this fan' did nothing, or the fans at west ham just made a protest, but all we are doing is waiting until it happens then we will do something about it.

 

[Sith Happens]

On 4/6/2018 at 22:16, McLovin said:

That’s why VAR needs to be implemented fully to help reduce the rate of poor decisions. People say that it slows the game down but I bet fans would rather that than a poor refereeing decision costing them in the game.

Well VAR needs to improve massively.

I have said it before in other threads but the amount of times we have a talking point about a poor refereeing decision is already low compared with the amount of times VAR has been called into action in the trial games its been held in.

You might get a talking point in 1 or 2 games each week, but dont know the stats but VAR has bee used several times per game in the ones I have seen. Even then a lot of its opinion, and will still cause talking points and people saying the decision was wrong.

Yeah there have been some offsides but they have been so marginal that VAR should never even have been called into action, its supposed to be for clear and obvious errors.

 

[Sith Happens]

21 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Its just a matter of lack of respect. It used to be that without question the referees decision is final. Right or wrong the impartial decision should be respected. I dislike punditry immensely. If they have to exist at all I would much prefer it that referees were left alone and all their nonsense was directed at the players and managers performance. I don't know why FIFA or the FA or whoever don't make it an immediate yellow card for disrespecting a decision. Some of the foul mouthed rants at Refs are completely out of order.

I thought it was supposed to be the case. Maybe its just using foul language i dont know.

[archram]

My dad was a local league ref in the early 50s. He often took me with him but some games he wouldn’t take me to as he knew the language and attitude towards him were so bad it would have upset me. I got to go when a Polish team were playing as nobody had any idea whether what they said was abuse or not!

[TigerTedd]

On 06/04/2018 at 22:27, Mafiabob said:

What about a poor decision by a striker? Does that affect the game? Or a poor defence mistake?

Think most miss my point..... the one who gets it in the neck is the ref if he makes a wrong decision, they are fair game granted..... but we expect refs to be robots when they have two eyes like everybody else.....

They are human.... they love th me game just as much as anybody. 

Mic them up. 

Maybe they should be replaced by robots then. 

The rules of any game shouldn’t really be open to interpretation. They should be black and white. This is a could because of this, this and this. This is not a foul because it does not meet those criteria. It ought to be that simple. 

Like goal line technology. That is black and white, the ball has either crossed the line or it’s not. The decision is essentially taken out of the refs hands. All they do is tell everyone what the technology said. 

VAR should be run by AI with very strictly programmed parameters. 

No one ever questions goal line technology these days. There are no controversial decisions based on that any more. VAR could be as good as that, if it was more sophisticated than the ref just looking at a tv monitor.

And I think pundits should be accompanied by a ref who actually knows the rules who can shoot them down when they say things like ‘well I think he had every right to go down there.’ I want someone to be able to site rule 33b of the official fa guidelines says he didn’t have any right to go down there, so stfu! Talk about the strikers technique, or the defenders positioning, you’re area of expertise, but don’t question the ref’s decision when you’re not a red and never have been a ref. 

[Sith Happens]

30 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

Maybe they should be replaced by robots then. 

The rules of any game shouldn’t really be open to interpretation. They should be black and white. This is a could because of this, this and this. This is not a foul because it does not meet those criteria. It ought to be that simple. 

Like goal line technology. That is black and white, the ball has either crossed the line or it’s not. The decision is essentially taken out of the refs hands. All they do is tell everyone what the technology said. 

VAR should be run by AI with very strictly programmed parameters. 

No one ever questions goal line technology these days. There are no controversial decisions based on that any more. VAR could be as good as that, if it was more sophisticated than the ref just looking at a tv monitor.

And I think pundits should be accompanied by a ref who actually knows the rules who can shoot them down when they say things like ‘well I think he had every right to go down there.’ I want someone to be able to site rule 33b of the official fa guidelines says he didn’t have any right to go down there, so stfu! Talk about the strikers technique, or the defenders positioning, you’re area of expertise, but don’t question the ref’s decision when you’re not a red and never have been a ref. 

It will never be black and white, even with VAR what one referee thinks is a penalty, or red card etc another will disagree.

And with the offside rule as it is today, this is open to interpretation regarding interfering with play.

Cant imagine AI ever being able to run this.

[TigerTedd]

52 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

It will never be black and white, even with VAR what one referee thinks is a penalty, or red card etc another will disagree.

And with the offside rule as it is today, this is open to interpretation regarding interfering with play.

Cant imagine AI ever being able to run this.

It should be subjective though really, should it? You should be able to get 10 refs all looking at the same dubious offside footage, and they should all give the same decision. If not, then the rules themselves are flawed, or the ref’s don’t understand them well enough.

i know that sounds fine in theory, and in practice it’s probably not as simple as that. But it really should be. 

Like yellow cards for abuse of the ref. That was made into a rule, but no one ever gets a yellow for it. Cos the refs don’t really have the balls to enforce it. A robot wouldn’t need the balls. And it would be completely pointless to argue with an AI anyway. 

Or there was the red that came out and said he didn’t send players off in a game cos it would have ruined the game, like a ref has the power to dictate the pace of a game. That’s something an AI probably couldn’t do. But should a ref have that sort of power. If the game is rough and people are throwing in red card challenges left, right and centre, then send the buggers off and play 9 vs 9. Otherwise you’re setting a precedent and it will never end. 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. If a Tesla can keep track of everything happening around a car as it drives down a road, I’m sure a network of cameras in a stadium, maybe a sensor in the ball, and on the players, could easily keep track of the players and ball at all times, and make indisputable decisions based on that. 

I’ll get right on that job. Watch this space.