Ponderations on Hull (2 years ago)

[cheron85]

So I was just having a check on the players who were in our ill-fated first leg and much improved second leg against Hull two seasons back - And then went to check what I thought was our next best performance of the season when we hammered them 4-0

The 4-0 was Carson, Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Olsson, Bryson, Thorne, Johnson, Russell, Martin, Ince

The 2-0 was Carson, Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Olsson, Bryson, Hendrick, Hughes, Russell, Martin, Wiemann

 

So what's my point right?

One of our most complete performances of the campaign (only just over a year ago) was with a front three we can still put out - One of most dangerous attacking performances was with a midfield we can still put out (ish)

Compared to those sides where is the obvious weak link in:

Carson, Wisdom, Keogh, Davies, Forsyth, Butterfield, Huddlestone, Johnson, Russell, Martin, Wiemann

For me it's just making sure they're tactically set up right... (and obviously bringing in Bryson for Butters - MORE COWBE... Sorry BRYSON)

[Jack Willow]

It's a long time ago and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. These players are not the same players since then, they all have partially degraded and also lost some of its capabilities.

[TuffLuff]

17 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

So I was just having a check on the players who were in our ill-fated first leg and much improved second leg against Hull two seasons back - And then went to check what I thought was our next best performance of the season when we hammered them 4-0

The 4-0 was Carson, Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Olsson, Bryson, Thorne, Johnson, Russell, Martin, Ince

The 2-0 was Carson, Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Olsson, Bryson, Hendrick, Hughes, Russell, Martin, Wiemann

 

So what's my point right?

One of our most complete performances of the campaign (only just over a year ago) was with a front three we can still put out - One of most dangerous attacking performances was with a midfield we can still put out (ish)

Compared to those sides where is the obvious weak link in:

Carson, Wisdom, Keogh, Davies, Forsyth, Butterfield, Huddlestone, Johnson, Russell, Martin, Wiemann

For me it's just making sure they're tactically set up right... (and obviously bringing in Bryson for Butters - MORE COWBE... Sorry BRYSON)

Good post, think the return of Bryson is crucial imo. Desperate for someone to pick up the pace in midfield and play 10 yards further up the pitch. Only thing is there is no guarantees Bryson is still that player...maybe Toral might be the answer?

[cheron85]

6 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Good post, think the return of Bryson is crucial imo. Desperate for someone to pick up the pace in midfield and play 10 yards further up the pitch. Only thing is there is no guarantees Bryson is still that player...maybe Toral might be the answer?

I don't think he's pacy is he?

And I think Bryson probably is still that player - I'm pretty sure the pre-season training videos suggested he was fitter than ever - Can't prove it without playing time though

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, lioncoeur said:

It's a long time ago and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. These players are not the same players since then, they all have partially degraded and also lost some of its capabilities.

Don't agree with this.

Players don't just lose capability. They lose confidence and legs may go as they get older but very rarely just lose capability. 

There is only really Bryson at an age where his legs will start to go as well in that line up.

[TuffLuff]

18 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I don't think he's pacy is he?

And I think Bryson probably is still that player - I'm pretty sure the pre-season training videos suggested he was fitter than ever - Can't prove it without playing time though

Not pacey, but someone who passes the ball quicker and movement that's makes others move the ball the quicker. He's not pacey himself, and he's not the most technically gifted, but he looks to move forward and play in the opposition half. That's our biggest problem to me.

I think he can be, he always takes time to get into the season but after the last couple of seasons he has that question mark over his head.

[RodleyRam]

I'm inclined to agree with you. It's definitely in there, the players have all proved individually that they are top 6 level talent. The set-up just seems wrong but maybe too much water has gone under the bridge for some of them to recover former glories.

Interesting point about Bryson. I thought he would have been right up GR's strasse. He's got energy, gets up and down and is positive with the ball. He's had injury problems but even last year he showed he still has that ability to drive into the box and make things happen. I'm surprised he's not featured more for GR to be honest, particularly now that Martin is back in the fold. People are talking about the Vydra/Martin combo (which I think could work) I think Bryson has the track record to provide as much of a foil, with the added benefit that he'd probably link midfield and attack better.

[Sexydadbod]

I don't think we will be able to play that way again with the current side. Many are coming to the latter stages of their careers while others have declined a lot. 

I think we should ignore the 2-0 play off game, that was a very bizarre game and was much as a case of Hull being tactically all over the place as we were good. The game changed when Hull took Huddlestone off. I also think the 4-0 game was harsh on Hull because they made a few mistakes( particularly the first mistake by Davies) which we took advantage of.

I actually think we should be looking to the 2-0 away win at Hull where Butterfield scored twice because I think that style would suit the current bunch more than the high energy style. That was a typical away performance needed to get out of this league. 

[Jack Willow]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Don't agree with this.

Players don't just lose capability. They lose confidence and legs may go as they get older but very rarely just lose capability. 

There is only really Bryson at an age where his legs will start to go as well in that line up.

How's that?

Does C. Bryson scores as many goals as he used to? No

Does J. Russell creates as many chances and scores as many as before? No

Does Chris Martin scores goals like he used to? Yes, more or less to the same extent. Except I think he doesn't fit G. Rowett's football philosophy and style.

Have B. Johnson or C. Bryson both ever repeated their best scoring season? No

So my simple conclusion as a football fan spectator is: they are not the same players as they used to be, they are older, slower and they aren't efficient anymore.

I still like them anyway.

[G STAR RAM]

10 minutes ago, lioncoeur said:

How's that?

Does C. Bryson scores as many goals as he used to? No

Does J. Russell creates as many chances and scores as many as before? No

Does Chris Martin scores goals like he used to? Yes, more or less to the same extent. Except I think he doesn't fit G. Rowett's football philosophy and style.

Have B. Johnson or C. Bryson both ever repeated their best scoring season? No

So my simple conclusion as a football fan spectator is: they are not the same players as they used to be, they are older, slower and they aren't efficient anymore.

I still like them anyway.

Or they are not being played in the same way as they were when they had them good seasons?

[cheron85]

15 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

I think he can be, he always takes time to get into the season but after the last couple of seasons he has that question mark over his head.

Name a player who doesn't...

They're ALL under the microscope after the last 2 seasons - Possibly unfairly some would argue

[EssendonRam]

Wasn't "Ponderations" the ranch on Bonanza?

[cheron85]

4 minutes ago, EssendonRam said:

Wasn't "Ponderations" the ranch on Bonanza?

Dunno - Sorry - Not old enough...

[WestLondonRam]

I really don't think it's the Players Ability all of out team are technically sound. 

I believe it's a mental issue, I.e. being up for the fight, being ready from the start. Look at when we went at Hull and nearly made it. That was because they knew all they could do is put on a performance it was already over. Pressure and heart ache had already come and gone all they needed to do was go for it. 

I don't think us fans help with the booing and winging to be fair. there is a lot to play for and even in work I know I am not always 100% on top of my game. It wouldn't matter how much I was paid I would still have my down days like anyone else.  

[Jamielowe34]

When confidence is low, the legs are slow

[Carnero]

When confidence is low, booooo the bazzers.

[loweman2]

One massive difference in those two teams that I am surprised has not been mentioned is George Thorne !

That lad can change a bang average team into a promotion team !

Just got to keep him fit, tell him all he has to do is ping passes, no tackling no tracking back, stay in that position in front of our defence and look for that killer pass ! 

[Ninos]

It's an interesting discussion but there are many more factors than a few changes in there. But the main reason we did well at hull was down to the fact that Hull went in knowing that they had to just defend a big lead. And we went out knowing we had to attack and overcome that deficit. Any 11 players would have done better than the home performance.

So the mentality of both sides was the primary reason for the result - which was not a success for Derby, but a success for Hull. They set up to play defensively and they achieved their objective  We set up for all out attack and ultimately, we failed. Game 2 entertained but we failed in both games.