jagerbob Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Bit of a mouthful to sing.... plus I reiterrate i dont want him back! We NEED to move forward away from the 2014 model, being the only way which will bring success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 11 hours ago, jagerbob said: Bit of a mouthful to sing.... plus I reiterrate i dont want him back! We NEED to move forward away from the 2014 model, being the only way which will bring success. We want to build FROM that 2014 model not AWAY from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 1 hour ago, cannable said: We want to build FROM that 2014 model not AWAY from it. ********, you have mcclaren back, you have chris evans back. If we take back martin we will be after jamie ward and simon dawkins next. Now is an ideal time to move away from combersome martin and use a younger, fitter more active type of player. As i have said countless times Martins success is partly down the limitations of the midfielders to see and have the strength to play the longer pass / through ball. Now is a different time, lets not go back in time to 2014 anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 1 minute ago, jagerbob said: ********, you have mcclaren back, you have chris evans back. If we take back martin we will be after jamie ward and simon dawkins next. Now is an ideal time to move away from combersome martin and use a younger, fitter more active type of player. As i have said countless times Martins success is partly down the limitations of the midfielders to see and have the strength to play the longer pass / through ball. Now is a different time, lets not go back in time to 2014 anymore! I'd have Dawkins back in a heartbeat as well! Martin can be sub to a better player if needs be. We always needed Martin cover after all. We needed to make that side better and sign better versions of the players we had. We need players who fit again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 22 hours ago, reveldevil said: You've got Martin, Chrissy Martin, I just don't think you understand. He's only there with you, Cos Nige didn't have a clue, We want Chris Martin back. I want to go the Fulham game just to sing that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 14 hours ago, jagerbob said: Bit of a mouthful to sing.... plus I reiterrate i dont want him back! We NEED to move forward away from the 2014 model, being the only way which will bring success. We have moved away from it and it's worked out really badly. We had a squad that all knew the system and their role and it got career bests out of them Then we brought players in under Clement that suited a different style. He tried different systems but went back to the original system because it suited our best players Then under Pearson we had even more players unsuited to the original approach. So he changed systems to find what works. He couldn't find one that brought out the best in any of the new players and it certainly didn't bring out the best in our original players We went from everyone knowing their role to half of them knowing their role to nobody knowing their role. We went from the whole team at career best to all players playing below their career best. What we needed to do in 2014 is upgrade players of the same breed of what we have. Trying alternatives has been pretty awful for us even when the alternatives are proven high standard defenders (Shackell), midfielders that coped ok in the PL (Johnson), promising forwards who broke into PL teams (Weimann) and PL veterans (Bent). These are all very good signings but brought into a team that doesn't know how to provide a platform for them. And they suddenly looked well below their career best. Since Mac was sacked is the best argument for not having a Plan B-Z. For not trying to be full of alternatives. Being predictable is the best thing we can be. It's how all the best teams are. Predictable means everyone knows what they need to do. It may not be good enough to get promoted or whatever the current level is but if you're seeing players hitting their personal peaks again then at least you know you just need better players. When no players are hitting their own personal best then you don't even know how good they are. You don't know what area of the team is weak. All the best teams are predictable. All teams who grow (like the rise of Bournemouth, Swansea, Saints, Watford) are predictable. But that's not held them back. It's why they've been so instinctive. Why they know the type of player to recruit. They get weakness exposed and they fix it. Brick by brick they've grown. I know Swansea are struggling but they've really made some downgrades. They've just not recruited well enough. Their team that won the league Cup and had a Euro campaign would smash this Swansea team even though they've tried to evolve their approach gently. Just poor recruitment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 2 hours ago, jagerbob said: ********, you have mcclaren back, you have chris evans back. If we take back martin we will be after jamie ward and simon dawkins next. Now is an ideal time to move away from combersome martin and use a younger, fitter more active type of player. As i have said countless times Martins success is partly down the limitations of the midfielders to see and have the strength to play the longer pass / through ball. Now is a different time, lets not go back in time to 2014 anymore! We have McClaren back and we've started winning. We're going back to a style that we were extremely successful with and had a relatively unsuccessful time when we left it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we need to build on what we're good at, rather than move in the opposite direction. You'd have thought Pearson taking us into the relegation zone would have got this through to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 So basically we now need to move out Shankell, Butterfield, Johnson, Weimann, Bent, Blackmann, Vydra and bring in players like from 2014? FFS move on we are in 2016/17 season, we are back playing to the beloved 4-3-3 under Mac because the players couldn't hack 4-4-2 under Pearson , now it seems we need to change the players once again because they don't fit. What? All the really matters is that the quality of the squad improves every season, this means releasing those that cannot improve and bringing in those that can improve the squad. Unless we improve the squad we will fall away season after season. Its a shame that Mel was not here at Christmas 2014 and boosted the squad when we had all those injuries under Mac's last term, if the squad was stronger then I believe we would have gone up as supposed to falling away to 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I don't think that's what @Alpha is saying @toddy. Rather that no matter how good the individual players, you aren't going to get the best out of them if you don't play them in a system that the whole team knows and plays to their overall strengths. I think Johnson, Bent and Butterfield's recent form demonstrates this. The system that suits our core strengths is allowing them to play better too. I agree about it being a shame that we didn't have the investment to cope with our injuries in 2014 -2015 but football is a cruel game in that respect. Even now we have money (and a bloated squad according to some) we are looking light in certain areas again at the minute due to the way the injuries have fallen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 13 minutes ago, angieram said: I don't think that's what @Alpha is saying @toddy. Rather that no matter how good the individual players, you aren't going to get the best out of them if you don't play them in a system that the whole team knows and plays to their overall strengths. I think Johnson, Bent and Butterfield's recent form demonstrates this. The system that suits our core strengths is allowing them to play better too. I agree about it being a shame that we didn't have the investment to cope with our injuries in 2014 -2015 but football is a cruel game in that respect. Even now we have money (and a bloated squad according to some) we are looking light in certain areas again at the minute due to the way the injuries have fallen. @angieram, when Clement was here we were top at Christmas with those players mentioned by @Alpha, yes I know it went to pieces, but top nether the less. So something was right, or at least nearly right within the squad. Mac has said Vydra is the future [I might have got that from you?], so it is possible that is the nail in Martins coffin, if that is Mac's decision I will not complain, same as bringing in Barton. Of all our recent managers/coaches In Mac I do trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Me too! I know many don't agree as results are everything to some but I was uneasy with Clement's style of play and downright disgusted with Pearson's. For me, the excitement of the football under McClaren is exactly what I want to see. I know it could all go pear-shaped again but I will enjoy it along the way. Martin - I personally wish he was still here but I can understand why maybe too much has happened for that to work out so if not I would like to see someone in with similar style. I don't think that excludes Vydra as I still remain convinced that the two of them together would have worked well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 If Sheffield Weds aren't singing it, we ain't singing it. Why be original??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 7 hours ago, toddy said: @angieram, when Clement was here we were top at Christmas with those players mentioned by @Alpha, yes I know it went to pieces, but top nether the less. So something was right, or at least nearly right within the squad. Mac has said Vydra is the future [I might have got that from you?], so it is possible that is the nail in Martins coffin, if that is Mac's decision I will not complain, same as bringing in Barton. Of all our recent managers/coaches In Mac I do trust. I've not said move those players on. The post I was replying to was saying we need to move away from the 2014 model. We don't. We haven't. Clement didn't move away entirely. He tried and he brought players in that suited various game plans. Then realised it didn't suit the better players and so went back to a familiar model incorporating the new players. Pearson tried to leave the 2014 model. And really went for it. Disaster. The 2014 model has been the most succesful thing for Derby since 2007. Every time we've moved away from it we've looked worse. Even with new players. The player fitting our model is more important than the player. I won't cry if Martin stays at Fulham. The only thing I don't like is Rams fans slating him. He's been better than any striker we've had in forever. The stuff about him being disruptive has no evidence. Him being lazy? There's evidence to suggest he's not. Him being crap? Then what about the strikers of the Derby history that haven't done what he's done? Him needing pace? Then why are our worst strikers recently all fast and the ones that have been relative success (Savies, Hulse, Howard, Kuqi and Martin) all "lack pace"? If we move on then we move on. But if you slate him then i stick up for him because he's done as much for Derby than anyone else in over a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 7 hours ago, angieram said: I know many don't agree as results are everything... If people think we just want pretty football then the point goes over their heads entirely. We want results as badly as them. But the call for taking time to develop something is so we can get results in the future. So there's a philosophy in place and a clear direction for the team. Chasing 3 points here and 1 point there is less ambitious than patiently doing it the hard way so the mistakes are our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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