New Head of Player Identification

[Curtains]

My last post about season long loans may be wrong .

This article about Liverpool shows the dilemma for the Football League Clubs as well as the Premier League  

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2016/05/new-loan-rules-201617-will-affect-liverpool-next-season/

[SaintRam]

I'm expecting some unknown(s) to sign in January (and then go on to be successful), no pressure new guys!

[RoyMac5]

Get this pair in now on overtime!

[Bris Vegas]

Derby should have hired me a long time ago for this job. I would have done it for a criminally low amount of money, and I would have done a far better job than the clowns employed by DCFC

I said 12 months ago I could have provided Clement with a far better team for promotion. I got seriously laughed off for making that statement. Doesn't sound so ridiculous now does it?

 

 

[davenportram]

2 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Derby should have hired me a long time ago for this job. I would have done it for a criminally low amount of money, and I would have done a far better job than the clowns employed by DCFC

I said 12 months ago I could have provided Clement with a far better team for promotion. I got seriously laughed off for making that statement. Doesn't sound so ridiculous now does it?

 

 

Actually it does

[SaintRam]

2 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Derby should have hired me a long time ago for this job. I would have done it for a criminally low amount of money, and I would have done a far better job than the clowns employed by DCFC

I said 12 months ago I could have provided Clement with a far better team for promotion. I got seriously laughed off for making that statement. Doesn't sound so ridiculous now does it?

 

 

******* listen to yourself, man. 

You're a jumped up journo.

[Bris Vegas]

4 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

******* listen to yourself, man. 

You're a jumped up journo.

You don't think with 30 million I could have picked an improvement on Bent, Blackman, Johnson, Baird, Carson, Ince, Butterfield, Weimann, Camara.... ?

We've spent 30m on a team which finished 3rd, and now we currently sit 18th with a central midfielder at left midfield, a striker at right midfield, no genuine wide players, Darren Bent upfront...

Are you saying, given £30 million as a budget, I couldn't have picked more suitable players to improve on what we already had? Absolute madness.

I'm not even a journalist... I'm perhaps 'jumped up' as you say.. I'd rather say I'm just confident in my ability to spot basic errors with systems and players etc. And what is actually needed for said systems to work.

Call me arrogant... But seriously, I could have done a far better job than our recruitment team. How could I have done any worse? 

Go back to the thread last summer and I said these signings would be a mistake. I'm not here for a 'I told you so,' I'm just pretty gutted we've destroyed what was my happiest time supporting the Rams.

I was like 10-12 during the Bald Eagle years, too young to really appreciate it.

[davenportram]

Naming players is different to getting their clubs to sell them.

[Bris Vegas]

13 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

******* listen to yourself, man. 

You're a jumped up journo.

Also, I'm not just talking about me, you could have hired anyone of a number of fans on this forum and they would have done a far better job than the clowns employed by the club.

A fair few on here realised from a long time ago that we didn't have the players to play 442, and many on here realised a long time ago what was needed (the little tweaks) to improve the 433.

If average fans like ourselves can spot this, you can't blame me for getting pretty wound up at the complete incompetence which has gone on at Derby over the past 18 months.

[SaintRam]

1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said:

You don't think with 30 million I could have picked an improvement on Bent, Blackman, Johnson, Baird, Carson, Ince, Butterfield, Weimann, Camara.... ?

We've spent 30m on a team which finished 3rd, and now we currently sit 18th with a central midfielder at left midfield, a striker at right midfield, no genuine wide players, Darren Bent upfront...

Are you saying, given £30 million as a budget, I couldn't have picked more suitable players to improve on what we already had? Absolute madness.

I'm not even a journalist... I'm perhaps 'jumped up' as you say.. I'd rather say I'm just confident in my ability to spot basic errors with systems and players etc. And what is actually needed for said systems to work.

Call me arrogant... But seriously, I could have done a far better job than our recruitment team. How could I have done any worse? 

Go back to the thread last summer and I said these signings would be a mistake. I'm not here for a 'I told you so,' I'm just pretty gutted we've destroyed what was my happiest time supporting the Rams.

I was like 10-12 during the Bald Eagle years, too young to really appreciate it.

Well, firstly I'm just annoyed at the world right now.

And me too (I'm a little younger I think) re the Bald Eagle.

 

I think Carson was definitely the best available GK for the price and for a lot of prices higher. and Bent was free, I don't really begrudge that acquisition either.

Camara was pretty cheap, so that's no issue. and you were supportive of the Weimann transfer, like me, weren't you?

I think Blackman, Johnson, Ince, Butterfield for a combined... £15m-20m is poor business however you look at it, I agree, and I think we were taking to the cleaners by Reading, Norwich and Huddersfield. To be honest, I'm not sure how the Johnson deal materialised on any level.

Ince was a release clause and after his performance with us on loan I don't think many would have had the foresight to not sign him, even with hindsight I still believe he'll do a good job for us.

Butterfield and Johnson were signed in a rush after the first game of the season, genuinely think a great deal of our current woes are not there if hughes and bryson dont get injured at Bolton.

 

Could you have done better with the money? Ok, probably. 

I probably could too, tbh, but I'd probably get frustrated at all the players I wanted who were absolutely not available. 

 

Just the "they should have hired me ages ago" etc. stance irritated me, because I don't like it when people watch someone not do well at something, criticise them and after watching them be sure they're better than them at their job despite never having actually done the job themselves. Just think it's rude I guess.

 

Confidence in yourself is not a bad thing, and I will not begrudge you of it. I just get suspicious of self confidence, tbh.

 

You could reduce the general air of smugness a little though 

[Bris Vegas]

18 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Well, firstly I'm just annoyed at the world right now.

And me too (I'm a little younger I think) re the Bald Eagle.

 

I think Carson was definitely the best available GK for the price and for a lot of prices higher. and Bent was free, I don't really begrudge that acquisition either.

Camara was pretty cheap, so that's no issue. and you were supportive of the Weimann transfer, like me, weren't you?

I think Blackman, Johnson, Ince, Butterfield for a combined... £15m-20m is poor business however you look at it, I agree, and I think we were taking to the cleaners by Reading, Norwich and Huddersfield. To be honest, I'm not sure how the Johnson deal materialised on any level.

Ince was a release clause and after his performance with us on loan I don't think many would have had the foresight to not sign him, even with hindsight I still believe he'll do a good job for us.

Butterfield and Johnson were signed in a rush after the first game of the season, genuinely think a great deal of our current woes are not there if hughes and bryson dont get injured at Bolton.

 

Could you have done better with the money? Ok, probably. 

I probably could too, tbh, but I'd probably get frustrated at all the players I wanted who were absolutely not available. 

 

Just the "they should have hired me ages ago" etc. stance irritated me, because I don't like it when people watch someone not do well at something, criticise them and after watching them be sure they're better than them at their job despite never having actually done the job themselves. Just think it's rude I guess.

 

Confidence in yourself is not a bad thing, and I will not begrudge you of it. I just get suspicious of self confidence, tbh.

 

You could reduce the general air of smugness a little though 

I was dead set against the Weimann deal and got hell for it. @sage and I in particular voiced our opinion quite firmly, largely due to the fact from what I'd seen he was always more comfortable down the middle and we really needed to bring in added quality in wide areas. 

It struck me 12 months ago that we brought in players because they were available and largely good players, but we failed to identify players which were suitable for the system which IMO is more important.

Carson I was totally wrong about, I said he was no better than Grant... I judged badly on that one.

Again I was doubtful about Ince as I felt his and Bent's performances, while individually good at the back end of 2014/15, didn't reflect well in the team. We suffered the moment they arrived pretty much. But Ince I would have taken, Bent absolutely not.

I'd never presume to think I'm better at somebody at a job I don't have a clue about. But when it comes to player recruitment for Derby, I just found it so obvious what we needed. 

Grant

Wisdom Keogh Buxton Forsyth

Thorne/Eustace

Hughes Bryson/Hendrick

Ward/Bamford Martin Russell

That was at the end of the 2013/14 season. Look at that core squad, and think you can have £30m! to improve it. Christie made sense, Ince I guess made sense, even Shackell, Carson and Olsson have added.

But the rest? We could have spent £20m! on two amazing wide players, a DM cover, another CF such as Murray/Kermorgant/Jones/Pitman as cover/alternative, better fullbacks...

We only needed little tweaks... But no, we bought in a shed load of players and then asked ourselves afterwards 'So where do we fit these players into the team?'

Derby aren't unique in this regard. But I can't ever remember another team in the second tier which has spent such vast amount of sums and actually become worse off for it.

[sage]

After Wembley, Thorne, Wisdom and Bamford's loans expired.

In that summer we bought Thorne and Christie and loaned Mascarell, Ibe and Best. Decent business apart from Best. We needed a much better Martin back up than this and in January signing Bent was a massive mistake, both in terms of loan and permanent. The loan would have been ok if we had also loaned or bought a Danny Graham or a Glenn Murray as well. Our failure to do this and loan a DCM ruined us,

 The following summer was a clusterfack. I would have signed Carson and Butterfield. I would not have signed any of the rest. Maybe Ince but not at that price. At this point we needed a quick wide forward, a goal scoring wide forward who links play up and DCM and target man cover. Maybe a RB if we have enough money spare. Obviously losing Bryson and Hughes in the first game was a nightmare but if we had signed a DCM we would only have needed to sign Butterfield for midfield.

This summer is starting to feel like the band on the Titanic playing as the ship sank. I know he wanted to look at players but surely if he wanted to play 442 we would need at least 1 quick CF, ! winger and 1 strong, dynamic CM from day one.    

  

[Cam the Ram]

35 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

You don't think with 30 million I could have picked an improvement on Bent, Blackman, Johnson, Baird, Carson, Ince, Butterfield, Weimann, Camara.... ?

I agree with you that we've made bad signings, but it's so easy to say you could have done it better a year after we've seen the signings have failed. And because statements like these from you annoy me so much and because I'm a boring person with nothing better to do on a Saturday night, I had a peek through your posts during last summers transfer window to see who you were suggesting we should sign at that time.

Now, I'll point out that you got plenty of judgements right, like Bent, Weimann, Pearce, Baird etc. when they signed, but you also said Carson doesn't improve us and doesn't suit us, I think we can agree that's wrong. You had a perfect judgement of Johnson in saying you can't see how he'll fit in here so fair play on that one. I'm not sure what your current stance is on Butterfield, but back when he was linked you commented saying 'he's ideal for us,' so you agreed with his signing back then. 

But now to the interesting part, the players you suggested back then. Some of your suggestions were decent, Ben Marshall, Finnbogasson and a couple of others, but some had seasons even worse than the players we signed. Obviously it's all subjective and you probably think the players you suggested would have done better if they came here than they did at the previous club or the club they joined, but we'll never know.

Some of your suggestions/comments:

Kermorgant - scored 0 goals in the Prem and then scored 3 in 17 in the Championship after signing for Reading.

You said Vydra was a good signing for Reading - 31 games, 3 goals.

Kenwyne Jones - 5 goals in 20, not the worst record but you complained about signing an old striker on high wages like Bent and then suggested Jones.

Brett Pitman - A reasonable suggestion, but the difference between top 2 and the play offs, I doubt it.

You commented that Luongo was 'one of the best DMs outside the Prem' - He hardly set the world alight last season.

You said Leeds have got a bargain in Dallas for £1m - Maybe true, but he wasn't anything special.

You also said about Barton, 'Forget his attitude, I just don't rate him as a player and feel he's too slow now.' - He then went on to be one of in not the signing of the season for Burnley.

 

I could probably find more stuff if I could be bothered, but you posted a lot back then and I'm getting tired! 

And this massive post isn't me trying to start some argument, I just wanted to point out that even the best judges of talent like yourself can be wrong. I agree that the recruitment team failed, but it's so easy in hindsight to say I could have done better.

[Bris Vegas]

11 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

I agree with you that we've made bad signings, but it's so easy to say you could have done it better a year after we've seen the signings have failed. And because statements like these from you annoy me so much and because I'm a boring person with nothing better to do on a Saturday night, I had a peek through your posts during last summers transfer window to see who you were suggesting we should sign at that time.

Now, I'll point out that you got plenty of judgements right, like Bent, Weimann, Pearce, Baird etc. when they signed, but you also said Carson doesn't improve us and doesn't suit us, I think we can agree that's wrong. You had a perfect judgement of Johnson in saying you can't see how he'll fit in here so fair play on that one. I'm not sure what your current stance is on Butterfield, but back when he was linked you commented saying 'he's ideal for us,' so you agreed with his signing back then. 

But now to the interesting part, the players you suggested back then. Some of your suggestions were decent, Ben Marshall, Finnbogasson and a couple of others, but some had seasons even worse than the players we signed. Obviously it's all subjective and you probably think the players you suggested would have done better if they came here than they did at the previous club or the club they joined, but we'll never know.

Some of your suggestions/comments:

Kermorgant - scored 0 goals in the Prem and then scored 3 in 17 in the Championship after signing for Reading.

You said Vydra was a good signing for Reading - 31 games, 3 goals.

Kenwyne Jones - 5 goals in 20, not the worst record but you complained about signing an old striker on high wages like Bent and then suggested Jones.

Brett Pitman - A reasonable suggestion, but the difference between top 2 and the play offs, I doubt it.

You commented that Luongo was 'one of the best DMs outside the Prem' - He hardly set the world alight last season.

You said Leeds have got a bargain in Dallas for £1m - Maybe true, but he wasn't anything special.

You also said about Barton, 'Forget his attitude, I just don't rate him as a player and feel he's too slow now.' - He then went on to be one of in not the signing of the season for Burnley.

 

I could probably find more stuff if I could be bothered, but you posted a lot back then and I'm getting tired! 

And this massive post isn't me trying to start some argument, I just wanted to point out that even the best judges of talent like yourself can be wrong. I agree that the recruitment team failed, but it's so easy in hindsight to say I could have done better.

It's easy to look to goal stats and suggest a player is/isn't good for the team. Kuqi, while here, netted twice in 13 matches but his inclusion was absolutely vital to our mini-success in that season under Clough.

I admit I was totally wrong on Carson. I didn't rate him, but he has proven to be a solid step up on Grant.

The likes of Kermorgant, Jones, Pitman... These were never designed to be regular first-teamers. We needed a decent back-up to Martin, one which fit the system regardless of goal scoring prowess.

Sure Barton had a great time at Burnley, but again was he ideal for us? He isn't renowned for being a great player in possession. Who would you take out to acomodate him - Hughes, Thorne, Bryson?

Re Butterfield I like the player. Perhaps the fee was a bit steep, but I rate him and think he is a good option to have in a three-man midfield.

Players fit at certain clubs and do poorly at others. I'm a staunch believer that a good reason behind this is the style of football which certain teams play. You can be the one of the best players in the world (Ibra), but if you don't fit the profile (Barca), it will just not work out.

You're right, it is easy to say in hindsight, but I'm sure I raised points these exact points at the time. 

It's just the way I judge players. I judge players on what they are capable of in a particular system. I'm not saying the likes of Bent, Blackman, Johnson, Weimann, Baird etc. are particularly poor players, I just could never see how they'd fit in with a system which established us as one of the better teams in the league.

 

[sage]

@Bris Vegas

Who would you sign now? a) for 442 and b) 433

[Bris Vegas]

1 minute ago, sage said:

@Bris Vegas

Who would you sign now? a) for 442 and b) 433

What's my budget? Also, I think I will have to answer this tomorrow, I'm supposed to be working now and have already spent a good hour and a half on here more than i should have!

[sage]

Just now, Bris Vegas said:

What's my budget? Also, I think I will have to answer this tomorrow, I'm supposed to be working now and have already spent a good hour and a half on here more than i should have!

£6m net

[Bris Vegas]

1 minute ago, sage said:

£6m net

Not even going to contemplate 442 with that sort of money... I'd have to sell Martin, Hughes and Hendrick for a combined sum in the region of £30m plus a few more and go from there.

I'll do 433 tomorrow, and with £6m plus the sale of a few like Blackman, Hendrick/Johnson, Bent I feel I could give us a competent side with one or two key additions!

[Cam the Ram]

1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said:

It's easy to look to goal stats and suggest a player is/isn't good for the team. Kuqi, while here, netted twice in 13 matches but his inclusion was absolutely vital to our mini-success in that season under Clough.

I admit I was totally wrong on Carson. I didn't rate him, but he has proven to be a solid step up on Grant.

The likes of Kermorgant, Jones, Pitman... These were never designed to be regular first-teamers. We needed a decent back-up to Martin, one which fit the system regardless of goal scoring prowess.

Sure Barton had a great time at Burnley, but again was he ideal for us? He isn't renowned for being a great player in possession. Who would you take out to acomodate him - Hughes, Thorne, Bryson?

Players fit at certain clubs and do poorly at others. I'm a staunch believer that a good reason behind this is the style of football which certain teams play. You can be the one of the best players in the world (Ibra), but if you don't fit the profile (Barca), it will just not work out.

You're right, it is easy to say in hindsight, but I'm sure I raised points these exact points at the time. 

It's just the way I judge players. I judge players on what they are capable of in a particular system. I'm not saying the likes of Bent, Blackman, Johnson, Weimann, Baird etc. are particularly poor players, I just could never see how they'd fit in with a system which established us as one of the better teams in the league.

 

Yeah, of course it's all about how well the players suit the system and on the whole our recruitment team seems to have found players who didn't, but you can't guarantee to do better. You said Butterfield would be ideal for us, but presumably judging by your response to SaintRam you believe Butterfield was one of those we wasted money on. Everyone gets things wrong, even yourself .... and while you probably could have done a better job than our recruitment team, as could many of the members on here, it just comes across as a tad arrogant to boast about how you would have done it better.

[sage]

1 minute ago, Cam the Ram said:

Yeah, of course it's all about how well the players suit the system and on the whole our recruitment team seems to have found players who didn't, but you can't guarantee to do better. You said Butterfield would be ideal for us, but presumably judging by your response to SaintRam you believe Butterfield was one of those we wasted money on. Everyone gets things wrong, even yourself .... and while you probably could have done a better job than our recruitment team, as could many of the members on here, it just comes across as a tad arrogant to boast about how you would have done it better.

I think what Bris is trying to say is most Derby fans with a decent knowledge of football of Derby and beyond could have done a better job, not because he or we are great, it is because out recruitment has been THAT BAD.