Mostyn6 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 @McRamFan have you actually familiarised yourself with the facts of this actual case? Forget that he's a cheating scumbag footballer for one minute for god sake and LOOK at the case! Why are you still banging this drum. He did not rape the girl. He should not have been made responsible for HER decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 36 minutes ago, McRamFan said: You are wrong. Not a fan of the Sun newspaper, however this piece is quite good and actually not done by the Sun directly....I'll copy the first one or two, go read the rest... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1983051/barrister-separates-fact-from-fiction-after-footballer-was-acquitted-of-rape-at-his-retrial/ 1. So Ched Evans has been proved innocent, right? Wrong. You’d be forgiven for thinking this, given that it was in the prepared statement read out by his solicitor, but Ched Evans has not “demonstrated his innocence”. That is not how our criminal justice system operates. It is not a means by which the truth of a situation or event is conclusively and fully determined. Rather the jury are asked one simple question – are you sure that the prosecution has proved its case beyond reasonable doubt (or, as juries are commonly instructed, so that you are sure)? “Not guilty” means just that. The jury were not sure that he was guilty. They may have decided that he was totally, utterly innocent, but we don’t know. All we know is that they considered the evidence, and were less than sure of his guilt. As I tell juries in every closing speech – if you think the defendant probably did it, he’s still not guilty. 2. Well at the very least, the verdict means that the complainant has lied, surely? No. Absolutely not. A not guilty verdict in most cases is insufficient to safely infer that the jury have concluded that a complainant lied (as opposed to the jury not being sure one way or the other), but in this case the facts suggest the opposite. As the Court of Appeal made clear in its judgment allowing the appeal, X has never asserted that she was raped. She has always simply maintained that she had no memory of what happened. It was the prosecution case – the case theory of the Crown Prosecution Service – that she was raped. The defence case was based not on the “usual” he said/ she said dispute over consent, but rather he said/ she can’t remember. There is absolutely no safe basis for suggesting she has lied, or, to quell the more hysterical calls, that she should be prosecuted on the basis of Evans’ acquittal. He may not be guilty of rape, however he is not innocent in his actions. The law can be bent to the power of money, that needs to be changed. 1) the solicitor said he had demonstrated his innocence, not that he had proved it. He has no need to prove innocence, as you are innocent until proven guilty. 2) I have consistently throughout this controversy since evans was released stated that it was a miscarriage of justice but that it is not necessary to show that the lady was lying. She said she can't remember ... So some of her evidence was speculative and probably wrong. But no reason at all to suggest she was lying, something else I have consistently stressed. Far from her being prosecuted, I think both she and evans should sue the prosecuting authorities for their complete incompetence in bringing this case to trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Just my humble view after reviewing the facts and giving time for the hysteria to calm down. He lied to get access to her room, he didn't speak to her before, during or after the act and she was of a state that she can't remember it properly. Now that may not be enough to be seen as rape in the eyes of the law but it isn't short of taking advantage of a young drunk female. I decided to take away the names and high profile ness and went along the lines of if my sister told me that this had happened would I think she'd been raped? Probably not. Would I think she'd been taken advantage of? Definitely. Would I blame her for getting drunk or him for the above? I would tell my sister to be more careful but I'd definitely Want to chin him if I saw him on a night out and I'm no angel I've just been brought up to be decent with the opposite sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: He lied to get access to her room, he didn't speak to her before, during or after the act and she was of a state that she can't remember it properly where did you get this information from? She was not in a state, the video footage shows that, she didn't remember the next day, but that is very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: where did you get this information from? She was not in a state, the video footage shows that, she didn't remember the next day, but that is very different. Elsewhere on the website, in a bid to portray the victim in a poor light, they state that “The complainant left the kebab shop and walked up Queen Street. CCTV footage outside the kebab shop and on Queen Street showed her unstable on her feet walking up Queen Street; unstable on her feet crossing the road; squatting in a doorway; urinating in a doorway; and reacting to a car that flashed its lights at her.” It also says that Ched Evans’ first encounter with the victim was when he stepped over her after she had fallen over in the kebab shop. http://footylaw.co.uk/2015/01/06/ched-evans-sifting-facts-from-fiction/ this is an extract from Evan's own team as part of their character 'assassination' of her. Seems to me to be in quite a state, especially paired with the video showing her going back outside to fetch the pizza that the other bloke leaves on the floor. (Assuming this is what you're going on for the not that much of a state view). On receiving the text, Evans told the taxi to head to the hotel. While his brother and friend stayed outside, Evans went into the hotel and lied to the receptionist to get a key to the hotel room. After letting himself in he saw McDonald having sex with the victim. This stopped when he entered the room. The two men, contradicting each other, say that the other asked if Evans could join in; and that after a “yeah” from the victim Evans performed oral sex on her before having sex with her. Same website different extract. I've seen the same two points I made published in numerous papers and myth busting sites so I won't be looking for another source, however I'm happy for you to show me something contrary? Like I said, I don't think what he did was rape but I do think he took advantage of a young drunken girl. And just as the norm now we look at the girl in detail and try to find consent in there rather than saying why as a man are we not doing the decent thing and putting her in a taxi home... Thats what pisses me off, I'm a normal, bit boisterous, red blooded bloke but I wouldn't sleep with a girl in her state. No legal crime has been committed but a moral one has in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 why is it a man's responsibility to decide how drunk a woman is? and whether or not she is capable of making a decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said: why is it a man's responsibility to decide how drunk a woman is? and whether or not she is capable of making a decision? Basic human respect of others and not a misogynistic one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 13 minutes ago, McRamFan said: Basic human respect of others and not a misogynistic one. so basically taking away a woman's right to be responsible for her own actions yeah? Bit of a contradiction. Maybe take away their right to vote, drive and work too, maybe even to have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: so basically taking away a woman's right to be responsible for her own actions yeah? Bit of a contradiction. Maybe take away their right to vote, drive and work too, maybe even to have an opinion. Oh come on. Any responsible polling station assistant knows how to identify and turn away women who don't look as if they've made a properly informed decision. It's basic human decency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 32 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: so basically taking away a woman's right to be responsible for her own actions yeah? Bit of a contradiction. Maybe take away their right to vote, drive and work too, maybe even to have an opinion. How about taking responsibilities for your own actions? Just because someone is acting irresponsibly does not mean you can. There were two choices available, regardless of consent. Choice one, walk away she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and this could get messy. Choice two, join in she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and my brother is watching... Twist it all you want, he could have stopped this all from happening if he had any self control and self respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 19 minutes ago, McRamFan said: How about taking responsibilities for your own actions? Just because someone is acting irresponsibly does not mean you can. There were two choices available, regardless of consent. Choice one, walk away she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and this could get messy. Choice two, join in she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and my brother is watching... Twist it all you want, he could have stopped this all from happening if he had any self control and self respect. I think you're being a bit judgemental. I'm not going to pry into your personal life, but don't pretend yourself and everyone of your friends and family have never had drunken sex or one night stands with or as a drunk girl. As far as Evans is concerned, it was no different to pulling a girl on a night out and having sex with her, which probably happened to a few thousand boys and girls around the country on Friday night and Saturday night. He's a scumbag for cheating, but his behaviour, both the cheating, the sharing with a mate, and the doing it with a drunk girl, are not unique to him. You're are coming across as unreasonably prudish, and you either led a sheltered life, or you are in denial. I hope to god you don't have children right now, you'd be mortified if you found out what real people actually do, or deluded if you think your's don't. It's not for Evans to decide a girl is not in control, and how should he tell the difference? If a man does something when he is drunk, he is responsible. If she was passed out, that is a totally different story though. But she wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 21 minutes ago, McRamFan said: How about taking responsibilities for your own actions? Just because someone is acting irresponsibly does not mean you can. There were two choices available, regardless of consent. Choice one, walk away she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and this could get messy. Choice two, join in she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and my brother is watching... Twist it all you want, he could have stopped this all from happening if he had any self control and self respect. You're conflating legal and moral responsibility. Evans' actions were morally reprehensible. If I was allowed to imprison everyone who ever acted selfishly and callously there'd be a hell of a lot of people doing porridge, including me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Performed oral sex on a girl his mate is having sex with. Stay classy, Ched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 31 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Performed oral sex on a girl his mate is having sex with. Stay classy, Ched. I agree. Bisexuals are degenerates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, McRamFan said: How about taking responsibilities for your own actions? Just because someone is acting irresponsibly does not mean you can. There were two choices available, regardless of consent. Choice one, walk away she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and this could get messy. Choice two, join in she is drunk and having sex with my mate, and my brother is watching... Twist it all you want, he could have stopped this all from happening if he had any self control and self respect. Re your last line, agreed he could have stopped it from happening if he had sufficient self control or self respect. So could she. I don't get why people are seeking to make moral judgments about Evans, since the same judgments could be made about the lady involved. according to some journalists who should know better he is a "misogynist". Seems to me they struggle to accept they were wrong in branding him a rapist so now they are going for the next best thing. The pair had sex of the most casual kind, and both have considerable cause to regret it. Whether I or anyone else disapproves is irrelevant. If he's immoral , so is she. If hes a misogynist because he had casual sex , she must be a man hater for the same reason. Of course that's all rubbish. these people should stop this moralising. Sure, lets encourage more restraint, but thats easier said than done. I think they have both suffered more than enough without the media wading in with cheap comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said: I think you're being a bit judgemental. I'm not going to pry into your personal life, but don't pretend yourself and everyone of your friends and family have never had drunken sex or one night stands with or as a drunk girl. As far as Evans is concerned, it was no different to pulling a girl on a night out and having sex with her, which probably happened to a few thousand boys and girls around the country on Friday night and Saturday night. He's a scumbag for cheating, but his behaviour, both the cheating, the sharing with a mate, and the doing it with a drunk girl, are not unique to him. You're are coming across as unreasonably prudish, and you either led a sheltered life, or you are in denial. I hope to god you don't have children right now, you'd be mortified if you found out what real people actually do, or deluded if you think your's don't. It's not for Evans to decide a girl is not in control, and how should he tell the difference? If a man does something when he is drunk, he is responsible. If she was passed out, that is a totally different story though. But she wasn't. one night stands from a night out we can probably all say yes to...with a girl I've stepped over in the kebab shop and not met before this moment? No. Big difference between being invited back somewhere when you've spent the night conversing with and enjoying the company of someone than getting a text off your mate and heading over too wet your willy. A girl you met for the first time as you stepped over her in a kebab shop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 49 minutes ago, Anon said: I agree. Bisexuals are degenerates. The classy ones aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 51 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: one night stands from a night out we can probably all say yes to...with a girl I've stepped over in the kebab shop and not met before this moment? No. Big difference between being invited back somewhere when you've spent the night conversing with and enjoying the company of someone than getting a text off your mate and heading over too wet your willy. A girl you met for the first time as you stepped over her in a kebab shop? I think most of us on here are in agreement that he didn't behave in a decent way, either to the girl in question, or his own girlfriend. But as others have said its not different to how a lot of people will have acted this weekend in cities all over the country, and yes i do believe that many men would happily sleep with a woman they had to step over in a kebab house. She is as responsible as he was, unless there is evidence they spiked her drink, or drugged her, and to my knowledge there is not, then she is responsible for getting drunk to the point she cannot fully recall her actions. And yes, if it was my sister i would be unhappy with him, but also her for putting herself in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmu Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 4 hours ago, Anon said: Oh come on. Any responsible polling station assistant knows how to identify and turn away women who don't look as if they've made a properly informed decision. It's basic human decency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Paul71 said: I think most of us on here are in agreement that he didn't behave in a decent way, either to the girl in question, or his own girlfriend. But as others have said its not different to how a lot of people will have acted this weekend in cities all over the country, and yes i do believe that many men would happily sleep with a woman they had to step over in a kebab house. She is as responsible as he was, unless there is evidence they spiked her drink, or drugged her, and to my knowledge there is not, then she is responsible for getting drunk to the point she cannot fully recall her actions. And yes, if it was my sister i would be unhappy with him, but also her for putting herself in that position. But surely it needs addressing that many think it is acceptable to take a girl on the floor in the kebab shop back to the hotel room? It's not about trying to be holier than thou or taking the moral high ground it's just about doing the right thing. Lets just ban women from drinking a certain amount because men have lost all ability to be chivalrous and do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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