The strategy for progress.

[Rich84]

Would like to see some of the youngsters given a chance rather than continue to buy, not saying start them just yet, but include the odd 1 on the bench. As has been commented in another thread, 3 defenders on the bench! Especially when Shotton is 1 and Baird also in 18 there should be enough cover there. Would much prefer to see Bunjaku, Guy or Koblenz as 1 of subs to cover midfield.

[WorksopRam]

Blimey, is he STILL on about a left winger?

[sage]

Every summer you should always look to make new additions, regardless of who you are and what you have achieved the year before. Sir Alex Ferguson always bought new players, despite winning the league year on year.

That's how you create long-term success.

As for our situation. We have bought in seven new players, but not all seven new players fit the system. We are short because three of the seven were IMO pointless.

Do we need to buy more players? Yes, because we didn't go out and buy the necessary players this summer. Despite bringing in seven, we lack a LW in the mould of Ince on the right and CF like-for-like competition for Martin.

If I was the head of recruitment at Derby, we would have a stronger squad than the current one.

 

It's only your modesty that stops you from being perfect.

You are right in many respects. This is how i would rank our signings in order of our need for them

Shackell, Baird, Ince, Carson, Pearce, Weimann, Bent     

I would agree a LW as good as Ince instead of Weimann, a decent back up for Martin instead of Bent and a decent LB back up for Forsyth instead of Pearce would have been ideal signings. Maybe a top class, more attacking RB.

 

[WorksopRam]

We've not seen enough of Weimann on the wing yet. He might play LW in these next couple of games, nail down a spot and be the type of player you think we're missing. 

Problem solved. Just a thought. 

[curb]

hmmmmmmm

Forest?

-5, not far away squad wise (although they've lost their two best players through long term injuries), but their last two managers have been terrible, and they have another -5 manager waiting.

A good coach would get their squad into the play offs.

[Rich84]

-5, not far away squad wise (although they've lost their two best players through long term injuries), but their last two managers have been terrible, and they have another -5 manager waiting.

A good coach would get their squad into the play offs.

your point was that big wages equals success, yet they've been paying big wages for a number of yrs and not had success...... now you say a good coach would get the best out of them.

I just used forest as an example that spending big doesn't guarantee success, arguably if they'd focused more on their youth they may have done better (Darlow, Osborne, Lascelles, Walker prove they have the capability)

I'd prefer us to look to developing those already in the club than keep buying, I don't think it is unreasonable to hope at least 1 youth steps up to 1st team squad every season, a good coach should know when to introduce the kids and how to achieve the balance between experience and youth.

[Curtains]

your point was that big wages equals success, yet they've been paying big wages for a number of yrs and not had success...... now you say a good coach would get the best out of them.

I just used forest as an example that spending big doesn't guarantee success, arguably if they'd focused more on their youth they may have done better (Darlow, Osborne, Lascelles, Walker prove they have the capability)

I'd prefer us to look to developing those already in the club than keep buying, I don't think it is unreasonable to hope at least 1 youth steps up to 1st team squad every season, a good coach should know when to introduce the kids and how to achieve the balance between experience and youth.

Forest is a bad example try using Man City or Chelsea or Man U .

Norwich and Swansea and Bournemouth and Leicester spent also .

 

It's  pointless arguing about this because obviously some people think we have enough decent players to get promotion in the youth and U21s and 1st team squad. 

I think we are a couple of quality players short. 

[ronnieronalde]

I'd hate to be a Chairman with most of you lot.

You sound a lot like Harry Redknapp ALWAYS wanting those two extra players, doesn't matter how many "squad fillers" you've signed in the first place.

Just two more Mr Chairman and that'll guarantee us success?

Here's a little tip. STOP signing squad fillers and focus on getting in players to strengthen the first 11.

How many squad fillers do you need to sign over 2 and half seasons before the squad is full enough?

7 signings in the summer and I've read the only one who's strengthened the fist team 11 is Shackell a bloke who was here 3 years ago an didn't really need scouting?  I've got to say as well though I wouldn't have brought him back. 

Christ on a bike, who's sanctioning the other 6 and when exactly would you stop asking for more signings?

[Curtains]

I'd hate to be a Chairman with most of you lot.

You sound a lot like Harry Redknapp ALWAYS wanting those two extra players, doesn't matter how many "squad fillers" you've signed in the first place.

Just two more Mr Chairman and that'll guarantee us success?

Here's a little tip. STOP signing squad fillers and focus on getting in players to strengthen the first 11.

How many squad fillers do you need to sign over 2 and half seasons before the squad is full enough?

7 signings in the summer and I've read the only one who's strengthened the fist team 11 is Shackell a bloke who was here 3 years ago an didn't really need scouting?  I've got to say as well though I wouldn't have brought him back. 

Christ on a bike, who's sanctioning the other 6 and when exactly would you stop asking for more signings?

I agree a couple of quality players is what we need to strengthen the first team ie Creative midfielder and another CF goalscore that's all. 

Bent and Ince were already here .

Pearce replaced Whitbread .

Wiemann replaced Ward 

Baird and Shackell are additions. 

Carson replaced Roos 

[curb]

your point was that big wages equals success, yet they've been paying big wages for a number of yrs and not had success...... now you say a good coach would get the best out of them.

I just used forest as an example that spending big doesn't guarantee success, arguably if they'd focused more on their youth they may have done better (Darlow, Osborne, Lascelles, Walker prove they have the capability)

I'd prefer us to look to developing those already in the club than keep buying, I don't think it is unreasonable to hope at least 1 youth steps up to 1st team squad every season, a good coach should know when to introduce the kids and how to achieve the balance between experience and youth.

I said a good coach will only get them another 5%, which in Forest's case would get them in and around the play offs.

 

[sage]

I'd hate to be a Chairman with most of you lot.

You sound a lot like Harry Redknapp ALWAYS wanting those two extra players, doesn't matter how many "squad fillers" you've signed in the first place.

Just two more Mr Chairman and that'll guarantee us success?

Here's a little tip. STOP signing squad fillers and focus on getting in players to strengthen the first 11.

How many squad fillers do you need to sign over 2 and half seasons before the squad is full enough?

7 signings in the summer and I've read the only one who's strengthened the fist team 11 is Shackell a bloke who was here 3 years ago an didn't really need scouting?  I've got to say as well though I wouldn't have brought him back. 

Christ on a bike, who's sanctioning the other 6 and when exactly would you stop asking for more signings?

Ince and Baird are better than Ward and Christie who they have replaced..

[VulcanRam]

I agree a couple of quality players is what we need to strengthen the first team ie Creative midfielder and another CF goalscore that's all. 

Bent and Ince were already here .

Pearce replaced Whitbread .

Wiemann replaced Ward 

Baird and Shackell are additions. 

Carson replaced Roos 

I think you've highlighted an important thing here Curtains. Its disingenuous to say we've signed 7 players as if they have simply been brought in on top of what we have here already.

The fact is a) Sam said we had a small squad which needed boosting and b) most players in have replaced outgoings or were included in that "small squad" already because they were here last year.

So you could argue that really our squad is not really much bigger than last season and therefore there is room to bring in more.

[Curtains]

I think you've highlighted an important thing here Curtains. Its disingenuous to say we've signed 7 players as if they have simply been brought in on top of what we have here already.

The fact is a) Sam said we had a small squad which needed boosting and b) most players in have replaced outgoings or were included in that "small squad" already because they were here last year.

So you could argue that really our squad is not really much bigger than last season and therefore there is room to bring in more.

Mate just remembered and not having a go either but we haven't replaced Eustace and Mascarell and with Hughes out for the season and Bryson for a month we are as Clement says a couple of midfielders down unless we count Koblenz and Banjuka .

[Rich84]

Forest is a bad example try using Man City or Chelsea or Man U .

Norwich and Swansea and Bournemouth and Leicester spent also .

 

It's  pointless arguing about this because obviously some people think we have enough decent players to get promotion in the youth and U21s and 1st team squad. 

I think we are a couple of quality players short. 

Why say Forest is a bad example when reality is they are a similar sized club with similar potential? I'd say they are the perfect example as opposed to the obscene levels of the 3 you mention, why not include Liverpool or Tottenham in that list?

What about the big wages paid by Ipswich, Blackburn, Leeds, Bolton, Portsmouth in the past where they have suffered financially as a result, or us under Paul Jewell? Again they are realistic examples.

I'm not arguing, just think there is too much emphasis on spending big to guarantee success, it doesn't work that way.

Leicester as an example is also poor in my mind, they screwed so many businesses over to clean their slate at a time Ipswich and us tried to do it the right way. Wipe your debt and spend again!

[Curtains]

Why say Forest is a bad example when reality is they are a similar sized club with similar potential? I'd say they are the perfect example as opposed to the obscene levels of the 3 you mention, why not include Liverpool or Tottenham in that list?

What about the big wages paid by Ipswich, Blackburn, Leeds, Bolton, Portsmouth in the past where they have suffered financially as a result, or us under Paul Jewell? Again they are realistic examples.

I'm not arguing, just think there is too much emphasis on spending big to guarantee success, it doesn't work that way.

Leicester as an example is also poor in my mind, they screwed so many businesses over to clean their slate at a time Ipswich and us tried to do it the right way. Wipe your debt and spend again!

Yea but we haven't been in the upper tier for a few years now and that's surely the target correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe your happy with never ending Championship Football  .

Clement I hope can be the answer to that for us and I hope he makes his own mind up what is required to achieve that  .

Im hopeful but not too confident  

Billy Davies got us to the Premier League but we only got 11 points because we hadn't got enough quality players to sustain it 

 

 

[Mostyn6]

Yea but we haven't been in the upper tier for a few years now and that's surely the target correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe your happy with never ending Championship Football  .

Clement I hope can be the answer to that for us and I hope he makes his own mind up what is required to achieve that  .

Im hopeful but not too confident  

Billy Davies got us to the Premier League but we only got 11 points because we hadn't got enough quality players to sustain it 

so, if a few more games down the line, we have signed the players you want, and we aren't winning, do we then get more players? or not? 

[Rich84]

If we are light in midfield by including Hughes' injury ( which is fair enough) then I'd say you should count Thorne as new this yr! 

As Bris has said plenty of times, back up to Martin is key, but surely Bent was the addition to offer an alternative as who's good enough to be an able direct replacement?

Baird was brought in for Eustace, I'd say Hanson is Mascarell's replacement and the introduction of Shackell is the major change in defence, whether that is enough or not time will tell. 

If Thorne stays fit then Baird will continue at right back and hopefully that solves that problem.

It's a poor do if we need to bring players in for Bryson's 4 to 6 weeks out, the line-up on Saturday did well enough, they may continue to do well enough whilst Bryson is out.

But, if a quality player does become available under the right conditions then I'm not saying don't consider it, we keep talking about the spirit in the club and too many good pro's not getting game time at Championship level will surely cause unhappiness.

[Curtains]

so, if a few more games down the line, we have signed the players you want, and we aren't winning, do we then get more players? or not? 

No but we will start winning then  IMO 

We need 2 or 3 more that's it .

Then Clement works with what we have and maybe that's what you were getting at I don't know but I tend to think you don't want any more acquisitions at all. 

For me as I've said we need 1or 2 more midfielders and a CF goal scorer to supplement the other 2 Bent and Martin .

Loans can cover more injuries if we have bad luck in that regard. 

Question for you which players in the U21s can make it good in the 1st team .

[ronnieronalde]

No 

We need 2 or 3 more that's it .

Then Clement works with what we have and maybe that's what you were getting at I don't know but I tend to think you don't want any more acquisitions at all. 

For me as I've said we need 2 more midfielders and a CF goal scorer to supplement the other 2 Bent and Martin .

Loans can cover more injuries if we have bad luck in that regard. 

Question for you which players in the U21s can make it good in the 1st team .

The U21's were the main focus of the strengthening under McClaren surely Curtains?

Again going on what i read on here and when i mentioned not many permanent signings had made the grade, the responses then were the u21 have been majorly strengthened and they would come through. Bunkaju, Mitchell, Santos, Calero, McDonald, SSewenkambo, Koblenz,and Kelle Roos how many more are needed 

We brought in Weimann, Ince and Baird all for the midfield roles. At a cost of nearly 9m quid. George Thorne came back into the fold as well. Dawkins, so many of you are crying out for him to be given a decent spell.

We brought in Bent on a hefty salary for the Centre Forward role and if he's not the alternative to Martin why did we bring him in?

Shackell and Shotton, Warnock, Whitbread, Christie and Albentosa, came into the defense. the Whitbread deal never got the attention it deserved either. Brought in on loan with a permanent contract attached irrespective of fit or not...

Let's be honest, the only 3 players who have gone from last years rota who made any kind of impact are Ward, Mascarell and Eustace and none of them were mainstays. The rest who've gone out on loan or released were already surplus to requirements last season.

Blimey, I wouldn't trust the recruitment team with  50 quid signing on fee, never mind trust them to bring in the quality needed for those 2 or 3 that would GUARANTEE promotion??

[VulcanRam]

Mate just remembered and not having a go either but we haven't replaced Eustace and Mascarell and with Hughes out for the season and Bryson for a month we are as Clement says a couple of midfielders down unless we count Koblenz and Banjuka .

Exactly, and that just highlights where we are at, and that bringing new players in is not some sort of unnecessary extravagance, but actually replacing players or bringing in improved quality to ensure we have a big enough squad to cope with what happened last season when injuries really hit home in the run in.

Also, it's unfair to dismiss the new arrivals as squad fillers as if they are just there to make up numbers. There is no-one who has come in who I think is a worse option than those who have left and all, perhaps with the exception of Pearce, should be expecting if they're doing well enough to be playing week in week out. Indeed Carson, Baird, Shacks and Ince are. Weimann would expect to but atm is being pushed out by Russell. I expect him to play tomorrow though.