sage Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 The only problem I have with our midfield is the perceived lack of fitness and ability to play in a two. Now, I say 'perceived lack of fitness' rather than 'lack of fitness' because I'm sure they're more than capable but don't show the levels needed to play in a two man CM duo. Thorne and Hughes are the two I'm holding out for - I think they're both good enough and smart enough to play in that two. Hendrick and Bryson need a three man midfield to work and, depending where he is touted to play, Dawkins does too.I fear @i-Ram has set his sights on a top 10 Premier League side, not a Championship side. To suggest Martin and Hughes aren't ''quality'' Championship players is close to madness, whereas to suggest they aren't top half Premier League quality is another thing altogether. They simply don't have the discipline to play that deeper role. Thorne doesn't break up play as well as Eustace but holds the right positions. They don't even have the discipline to play as a 2 in CM where one has to hold, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Thanks for your insight Clouseau. Did I say we were not good enough in attack? I said we need a good midfield playmaker. I would suggest your analysis of what I wrote might be open to ridicule.By the way I think your opinion of Hughes is inflated, and your assessment that Bryson will have a much better upcoming season because Craig said that nasty man McClaren played him in the wrong position last season is weak. We will struggle to get into the top two with our current midfield. ''you are deluded if you think we are already good enough in midfield and attack''... feel free to ridicule me for something you explicitly stated! Also, at least I took the time to analyse rather than just state you were wrong as you have done. Do feel free to add why Hughes isn't the best midfielder in the league or why Bryson might not recapture previous form.The midfield nor the attack was not the problem last season. We scored 3 goals against Millwall yet only came away with a point. The problem therefore lies with the defence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I fear @i-Ram has set his sights on a top 10 Premier League side, not a Championship side. To suggest Martin and Hughes aren't ''quality'' Championship players is close to madness, whereas to suggest they aren't top half Premier League quality is another thing altogether. No need to have fear on my behalf Ambitious. I haven't set my sights on the Premiership. Call me old school but I think we have to get out of the championship first, something we haven't done the last 2 seasons (I thought you were supposed to be good with stats). Hughes has the potential to be a very good player, but he is not yet good enough to consistently control the midfield. I am comfortable if they can all stay fit, to have a Thorne Hughes base, and a forward three of Martin, Weimann and Ince, but in my opinion we need somebody with a bit of nous and sparkle to make it all gel together. We don't have that player presently. Sage suggested a John Gregory type player a couple of posts back and I agree that is the kind of playmaker we need. I am hoping Evans/Clement want that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 No need to have fear on my behalf Ambitious. I haven't set my sights on the Premiership. Call me old school but I think we have to get out of the championship first, something we haven't done the last 2 seasons (I thought you were supposed to be good with stats). Hughes has the potential to be a very good player, but he is not yet good enough to consistently control the midfield. I am comfortable if they can all stay fit, to have a Thorne Hughes base, and a forward three of Martin, Weimann and Ince, but in my opinion we need somebody with a bit of nous and sparkle to make it all gel together. We don't have that player presently. Sage suggested a John Gregory type player a couple of posts back and I agree that is the kind of playmaker we need. I am hoping Evans/Clement want that too.So you don't think Martin is a ''quality'' Championship forward then? Or Bent? I can't think there are many forwards at this level that fit your criteria. Hughes was consistently our best player last season and duly won the award to fit his performances. I just think your standards for quality Championship players have to be controlled somewhat - unless, of course, you argue that Charlie Austin is the only quality striker in the Championship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 ''you are deluded if you think we are already good enough in midfield and attack''... feel free to ridicule me for something you explicitly stated! Also, at least I took the time to analyse rather than just state you were wrong as you have done. Do feel free to add why Hughes isn't the best midfielder in the league or why Bryson might not recapture previous form.The midfield nor the attack was not the problem last season. We scored 3 goals against Millwall yet only came away with a point. The problem therefore lies with the defence...I am always jolly happy to ridicule you Yorkshire, but rarely keen to debate with you. At the end of the day you always think you are right, and that is fine by the way. But if I really wanted to engage with someone who always thinks they are right, I would stay away from this forum and talk to my missus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4derby Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Yeah fair point actually. I don't know why, but whenever I imagine someone else playing 'the Martin role' I always picture some 6ft4 striker when it could probably be done by someone 5ft6 as long as they had good technical ability and came deep and got involved in the build up play I think your initial thought has some merit though, as while height might not be an issue, strength surely does come into it. In the Championship you are almost certain to face some big, strong CB's who will kick you and the ball away at every opportunity. Chrissie's hold up play is superb, but it's as much to do with his frame and strength, his presence creates a space and holds off the CB's. A smaller technical player may hold up the ball, but retaining it will be harder if they're consistently brushed off the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I am always jolly happy to ridicule you Yorkshire, but rarely keen to debate with you. At the end of the day you always think you are right, and that is fine by the way. But if I really wanted to engage with someone who always thinks they are right, I would stay away from this forum and talk to my missus.I will more than happily admit when I'm wrong but to do that I have to be presented with an opposing view...which you didn't provide.Again however, you make a claim that I should be mocked for mis-interpreting your post but when I respond quoting that you indeed say what I implied, you provide no counter-argument.If you are going to call me wrong, at least have the common courtesy to explain why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I just think your standards for quality Championship players have to be controlled somewhat Thank you for your pomposity. I judge the quality of players as to how they perform when a) they are up against a good team, and b) how they perform when you need a result. Unfortunately, over the last 2 seasons some of the players who you suggest are "Championship quality" have proven they aren't that great when it really matters. I stick with my view that our team needs a proper midfield playmaker to turn what is an ok team (a top 6/8 team) into a team that might firmly grab and hold on to a top 2 place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Thank you for your pomposity. I judge the quality of players as to how they perform when a) they are up against a good team, and b) how they perform when you need a result. Unfortunately, over the last 2 seasons some of the players who you suggest are "Championship quality" have proven they aren't that great when it really matters. I stick with my view that our team needs a proper midfield playmaker and a right back to turn what is an ok team (a top 6/8 team) into a team that might firmly grab and hold on to a top 2 place. FTFY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 We had a squad that looked good on paper last year, but somehow it evolved into an utter shambles of a team. The defence was a mess individually and collectively.The spine was weakened by injury, and there seemed to be disharmony within the group.It seems incredible that the coaching staff at the time appeared to have no answers and we got worse and worse.we face a challenge to turn it around quickly and I doubt whether a single big money signing will fix it - not that a midfield general wouldn't be a big plus - its just that there are too many holes to plug if the last 16 games are any guide.we may see many of the same problems again if we have the same full backs, the same weakened spine, and - by and large - the same unhappy group. character will be important and there is no point signing more and more of the same....i'd really like to see chris evans pull a few rabbits out of the hat without resorting to Qpr style thirty somethings on big wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernRam Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 How many players you want?????????? 3. What's wrong with that? Our defence wasn't good enough last season, simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernRam Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I'd only be after a playmaker, if they have the ability to guard the back 4 also. Too many times we have seen the rotation of Bryson, or Hendrick or Hughes into that role and it didn't work. Baird and Thorne are good no doubt - but if we're adding an extra body they should be able to guard and give. Bryson, Hughes, Hendrick were touted as the reasons why we had the best midfield in the Championship about a year ago - to say they are below average and we need better and then dismiss a 'revolution' is absurd. As many previously have said, we need 'evolution' - and that involves utilising the 3 we already have, who are all able to create and adapt when they have a solid holding midfielder in support. I don't think three players is a big ask - especially when you saw quite how shambolic our defence was last season. I had zero confidence coming into games at the end and our defensive record is appalling compared with the rivalling Boro. Shackell is the CB we need alongside Keogh or Pearce, and Buxton is a good option off the bench. Hopefully the Albentosa loan drums up some money too. Then there's Shotton and Warnock. Warnock will have to do as we can't afford to respend in every position, but Shotton just isn't good enough. We need a new starting RB for Christie to cover. What happened to Cristian Gamboa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I will more than happily admit when I'm wrong but to do that I have to be presented with an opposing view...which you didn't provide.Again however, you make a claim that I should be mocked for mis-interpreting your post but when I respond quoting that you indeed say what I implied, you provide no counter-argument.If you are going to call me wrong, at least have the common courtesy to explain why...Sorry, fell asleep. Had some nice dreams of Asanovic. Regarding your last sentence Yorkshire, it's got nothing to do with courtesy in my book. You think you are right, I think you are wrong. I have neither the desire or the time to get into embroiled to and fro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Unfortunately, over the last 2 seasons some of the players who you suggest are "Championship quality" have proven they aren't that great when it really matters. We had a squad that looked good on paper last year, but somehow it evolved into an utter shambles of a team. I think these are over-simplifications somewhat... We had a team which beat Bournemouth and home and (be bournemouth fans) were rated the better team away... We beat Watford away and were the better team at home (IMO) and they were the best teams in the championship last year...The problem isn't quality it's mentality... Smacca never managed to make them comfortable with the idea of being the best... it was a team full of guys who had 'failed' in the Prem, come from scotland, the lower league or youth team... they'd never been dubbed 'favourites' before and I think they never came to terms with that... And it's not something Smacca has ever really dealt with either...Hopefully Clement will have a bit more experience in this area and I think that's why he'd been brought in... He knows how to coach winners... guys who are ALWAYS going to be favourites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Sorry, fell asleep. Had some nice dreams of Asanovic. Regarding your last sentence Yorkshire, it's got nothing to do with courtesy in my book. You think you are right, I think you are wrong. I have neither the desire or the time to get into embroiled to and fro.Then don't start throwing phrases about like I should be 'ridiculed', if you're not then going to back it up with a reason as to why that might be the case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I think these are over-simplifications somewhat... We had a team which beat Bournemouth and home and (be bournemouth fans) were rated the better team away... We beat Watford away and were the better team at home (IMO) and they were the best teams in the championship last year...The problem isn't quality it's mentality... Smacca never managed to make them comfortable with the idea of being the best... it was a team full of guys who had 'failed' in the Prem, come from scotland, the lower league or youth team... they'd never been dubbed 'favourites' before and I think they never came to terms with that... And it's not something Smacca has ever really dealt with either...Hopefully Clement will have a bit more experience in this area and I think that's why he'd been brought in... He knows how to coach winners... guys who are ALWAYS going to be favourites... My thoughts exactly and exactly why PC was disappointed after the Northampton game. I believe this group are talented enough but not arrogant enough in the right way. By that I mean that if you have the talent you can be arrogant but you also have to WORK VERY HARD to prove it. Once they get it they will be fine but I expect its frustrating to PC after coaching Los Galacticos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Then don't start throwing phrases about like I should be 'ridiculed', if you're not then going to back it up with a reason as to why that might be the case...Will if I want, so there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 My thoughts exactly and exactly why PC was disappointed after the Northampton game. I believe this group are talented enough but not arrogant enough in the right way. By that I mean that if you have the talent you can be arrogant but you also have to WORK VERY HARD to prove it. Once they get it they will be fine but I expect its frustrating to PC after coaching Los Galacticos. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33255194 The BBC had this article recently about the power of Ego in successful players... I think this is probably what you're thinking about when you say the right kind of arrogant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3232 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 In an ideal world I would want 3 signings still, but this isn't football manager so lets see what happens... Replacement target man for SammonWinger most likely a loanStrong CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Will if I want, so there. Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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