Have we learnt how to grind out wins?

[robglosta]

For me, last season we missed out on second due to our inability to grind out wins when in a strong position (Brum away still particularly sticking in the craw).

 

Do you think this team skill can be learnt/developed?  Or is it too dependent on individuals and weakspots within the team?

 

If we are to live up to our favourites tag; this is an area we really need to comfortable with, in my opinion. 

[Tombo]

We can only bloody hope. Because as Eric Steele said on Rams Player, we're a big team scalp for other teams to collect now. A lot of our games will be difficult affairs where we have to grind out results.

 

On the whole though, QPR at home was a ground out win. Brighton first leg at the Amex (although the second leg was another class) was a ground out win. Brighton at home in the league was a ground out win (bit of luck from that Bambi 20 yarder). Yeovil at home was a tough game when we ground out a victory. Middlesbrough at home was another.

So we're not all that bad at it. But it is a flaw.

[DesertRam]

Hopefully we've learnt from our mistakes last time, as we need to be ruthless when it

comes to the weaker teams, and not drop any needless points.

After their narrow miss, Leicester seemed to toughen up, and were never wasteful

and we have to do the same to gain automatic!

[Uptherams]

We missed out on second firstly because SM was not in charge the whole season and secondly because Burnley kept on gaining points. Another season and we would have been promoted with that many points. People need to be more optimistic. Let's see how we have done after 6 games. 

[Chris Mills]

Agree 100% with this. Lots of points to be won and lost through grinding out results, but I think our main issue is breaking down defences that stick 10 men behind the ball. Struggled with that last year and we will come across it much more this year with our new found reputation.

[Stive Pesley]

Agree 100% with this. Lots of points to be won and lost through grinding out results, but I think our main issue is breaking down defences that stick 10 men behind the ball. Struggled with that last year and we will come across it much more this year with our new found reputation.

 

Agree - I'm more concerned about creating goals when the opposition defend en masse, and being solid enough to not get caught napping at the back whilst we do so.

[duncanjwitham]

We missed out on second firstly because SM was not in charge the whole season

 

I don't agree with that.  If you compare the majority of the points we dropped under Clough, we dropped similar points under McClaren - both managers had losses against Burnley and Leicester and draws against Blackburn and Bolton. The only differences being we played Forest and Reading when they were flying under Clough and when they were poor with McClaren, and likewise, we played a poor Millwall side under Clough and a much better one under McClaren.  You can't just assume because we have McClaren for a full season, we'll get more points.

[Uptherams]

I don't agree with that.  If you compare the majority of the points we dropped under Clough, we dropped similar points under McClaren - both managers had losses against Burnley and Leicester and draws against Blackburn and Bolton. The only differences being we played Forest and Reading when they were flying under Clough and when they were poor with McClaren, and likewise, we played a poor Millwall side under Clough and a much better one under McClaren.  You can't just assume because we have McClaren for a full season, we'll get more points.

 

Rubbish. 

[duncanjwitham]

Rubbish. 

 

Ok, so which points that we dropped under Clough, would we have picked up under McClaren?

[YorkshireRam]

I'd imagine the players will have to adapt more this season. Last season we were an unknown quantity. Under Clough we played good football but then under McClaren we took it up a notch and started becoming more deadly. Many teams didn't know how to contain us and this allowed us score goals.

 

However, towards the end of the season especially, teams started latching onto the fact that if they play an overly-physical game and stop us establishing a flow of passes, we were fairly ineffective. Wigan at home was the first one I can remember.

 

This season at home, I can see more teams than not coming with this game plan. Stop us playing football and grind out a draw or a sneaky win, just like Wigan did.

 

Taking this into account, Derby players will have to wisen up. Grinding out wins in tough, physical games will be the difference between promotion or not this season I would imagine.

[Uptherams]

Ok, so which points that we dropped under Clough, would we have picked up under McClaren?

You take our season average points per game under SM and times that by our first 9 matches. There is no better way. 

[duncanjwitham]

You take our season average points per game under SM and times that by our first 9 matches. There is no better way. 

 

Rubbish.  Do you really believe the opposition has no say in the outcome of the match? You can't just say that McClaren will carry on with the exact same winning percentage no matter who we are playing.  You've got a tiny sample size for games under Clough, and looking at the teams we played (and the form they were in at the time we played them), it's pretty reasonable to say Clough had a much tougher set of games than McLaren had.

[Uptherams]

Rubbish.  Do you really believe the opposition has no say in the outcome of the match? You can't just say that McClaren will carry on with the exact same winning percentage no matter who we are playing.  You've got a tiny sample size for games under Clough, and looking at the teams we played (and the form they were in at the time we played them), it's pretty reasonable to say Clough had a much tougher set of games than McLaren had.

Like I said there is no better way. You can't pick and choose and say we would have won and lost that game under SM. You can';t turn a 2-1 win into a 1-1 draw. The best you can do is take SM game average points. We can't say what the score would have been against this and that team. Which also means that we would not know if we would have beaten Burnley. Which under those circumstances would mean we finish 2nd. All we can do is establish our total points based on SM average. 

[Stive Pesley]

I seem to recall that even if we had Mac's average points return over the whole season, we'd have still come one point behind Burnley. Therefore it doesn't matter

[duncanjwitham]

Like I said there is no better way. You can't pick and choose and say we would have won and lost that game under SM. You can';t turn a 2-1 win into a 1-1 draw. The best you can do is take SM game average points. We can't say what the score would have been against this and that team. Which also means that we would not know if we would have beaten Burnley. Which under those circumstances would mean we finish 2nd. All we can do is establish our total points based on SM average. 

 

There might not necessarily be better ways, but that doesn't mean what you are doing has any value at all.  Just on a simple comparison, in Clough's 9 games in charge, we played 6 top half teams (including both auto-promoted teams) and only 3 teams in the bottom half of the table. That fact alone means that averaging McLaren's points over a season is utterly useless, because you're not comparing like for like.  Whether we would have won those games under McLaren is obviously pure speculation, but from similar games we played under McClaren, it's reasonable to assume that we wouldn't have carried on McClaren's points-per-game record.

[Uptherams]

There might not necessarily be better ways, but that doesn't mean what you are doing has any value at all.  Just on a simple comparison, in Clough's 9 games in charge, we played 6 top half teams (including both auto-promoted teams) and only 3 teams in the bottom half of the table. That fact alone means that averaging McLaren's points over a season is utterly useless, because you're not comparing like for like.  Whether we would have won those games under McLaren is obviously pure speculation, but from similar games we played under McClaren, it's reasonable to assume that we wouldn't have carried on McClaren's points-per-game record.

You can't refer to them as top half teams in the first 9 matches. 

[duncanjwitham]

You can't refer to them as top half teams in the first 9 matches. 

 

Oh FFS 

 

Right you win, there's no difference between any of the teams in this league, the opposition is entirely irrelevant in any game, all the matters is the managers win percentage.

[Thierry Ennui]

It's a baffling argument to say that we didn't improve massively when McClaren arrived. You only have to look to the tweaking of tactics to have Wisdom as a defensive, shackled full back for the good of the team. Also, his substitutions. McClaren is a far better tactician.

[t'oldu]

We need to make the most of the chances we create. It is IMPORTANT to put the ball into the net . We'll do that next time is not the right attitude. We need to be clinical and finish the moves.I 

And we need a Plan B to combat teams who park the bus...........something better than hopefully putting Sammon on to  create confusion.   Anyone who watched the play off final now knows how to stop us playing.   They will do it.

It doesn't matter how pretty the patterns are in the middle of the pitch the aim of the game is to get the ball in their net and keep it out of ours.  Those that do that best WIN.

[Thierry Ennui]

We need to make the most of the chances we create. It is IMPORTANT to put the ball into the net . We'll do that next time is not the right attitude. We need to be clinical and finish the moves.I 

And we need a Plan B to combat teams who park the bus...........something better than hopefully putting Sammon on to  create confusion.   Anyone who watched the play off final now knows how to stop us playing.   They will do it.

It doesn't matter how pretty the patterns are in the middle of the pitch the aim of the game is to get the ball in their net and keep it out of ours.  Those that do that best WIN.

 

Incredible analysis, up there with Shearer