Leicester City v Derby County

[WilkoRam]

I'm not abusing anyone here, just in case it goes off on one.

It's another one of those threads, not one of us will back down from the view that our football knowledge is better than the person we are arguing against.

I can't agree with Wilko because I see things so differently to him that it's not true. It's as if we watch different clubs. I think my view of what is going on is right.

Wilko can't agree with Ambitious because Wilko feels he sees thing so differently from him that it's not true. it's as if he's watching a different club, he thinks his view of what is going on is right.

The manager is there to tell players what he expects of them in certain situations,he;s there to teach them if they don't already know, the coaches are there to make sure the players practise those situations again and again. Sometimes on the training ground they'll set up to defend 100 different corners and you might even see the coaches or the managers physically putting a player where he wants them to be when the ball comes in. They'll be designated tasks for every different type of scenario.

Prior to the game they'll be given players to mark, jobs to do, tracking back or staying up top. They will know exactly what they should do in every given minute of every different game depending on the score.

In game situations though, we don't have the chance to stop and run through it again. We can't ask Knockaert to take it back and to try and chip one to the far post and see how we deal with that. We can't take play back to their goalie and ask them to try again but this time telling Conor Sammon not to trip him up. We can't even ask Reading before the second goal, to take the throw in again but this time make sure Eustace tracks Pogrebnyaks run (not one person has picked up on that by the way, at least not publicly, watch where Pogrebnyak first gets the ball, watch his run and watch Eustace totally let him go, Russell got slated but Eustace could have done more)

How can you blame the manager for that? Honestly, think about it. He doesn't get the chance to physically put them where he wants them to be, he doesn't get the chance to talk to the 8 defending the set pieces just before they come in.

I agree that If the level of performance was garbage, then the manager takes it on the chin, lock stock and barrell.

When we're showing that we 're able to smash teams one week yet concede to three ridiculous INDIVIDUAL errors, then how can anyone say it's the manager to blame.

By the way can anyone tell me when it was when Leicester last dropped out of the best 6 sides in this division.?

We got done 2-1 away from home thanks to two small mistakes (not even massive) and one piece of real class.

Again I fail to see why that brings out the usual need for crisis talks between the good and bad side of the forum?

What did you say? Step outside mo fo and let's settle this! I don't take offence I like that we don't all agree. Do we really come on this forum to agree with each other? It would be impossible to all have the same opinions.

That said I don't disagree with everything that you and Ambitious post. I think individual errors have an impact, as I mentioned with Russell earlier. But what I disagree with is that individual errors are the reason we are inconsistent, conceding goals almost every game, etc. We haven't, for a long time now, looked like a solid, well organised team. When was the last time you honestly felt confident we would shut out the oppo? I can't remember when I felt like that because I don't see the organisation at the back. That's where I see the managers fault. Does he take the blame if a CB is weak in a challenge one game? No. Does he take the blame if that player is consistently weak in a challenge? Yes. Does he take the blame if the defence just look like a collection of individuals? Yes.

Maybe people see it differently and that we are solid and if it wasn't for the errors we'd be shutting teams out but 1 clean sheet so far, surely that's not down to having a solid team with individual errors but a poor defensive unit?

Anyway like you say we'll probably never agree on this but hey what else we going to do?

[WilkoRam]

Not quite true that bit. I just think people see what they want to see on this forum, not actually reading anything, just here to argue. I see people posting false arguments all the time, Arguing about things that have never been said.

I saw a lot of the regular posters saying this week would be a bloody tough week, I saw masses or people predicting losses to Leicester (me included) I saw lots of positive posters predicting defeat. Nothing about hunky dory anywhere.

None of the positive posters claiming we've cracked it and we're going up.

I didn't even see too many people saying we're nailed of for top 6 after beating Millwall, however, the same can't be said for the opposite views.

Doesn't matter who we lose against or how good a team they have, Every single time we lose a game he's taken us as far as he can and he should be sacked. Every single time?

Necessary? Really? Fair? Really?

Personally I'm not here saying that due to yesterday's result. I'm not that fussed about it. I expected it (heck I even had a Leicester win in my acca). I'm not criticising for that one result but his tenure as a whole.

[Ambitious]

I guess we're down to the point where people are firmly in camps

 

I am realistic about our chances, and have been for the past 5 years.

 

When we were relegated, I expected us to have a hang-over, but not as bad. I said we'd finish 14th, we finished 18th.

 

Clough's first season in charge, from the very first day we knew it would be a summer of transition and making the most of what we had, I said we'd finish 18th, we finished 14th.

 

The next season, I was depressive and thought we would go down, so 22nd - didn't get a season ticket, and in that season we had our first brief spells of quality, yet we finished 19th after a very good start.

 

The next season, I was built up by promises that wasn't matched - at the end of the transfer window I had us down for 19th, we we finished 12th.

 

And last season, at the start I had us down for 18th and we finished 10th.

 

and this season I have us down for 11th.

 

So, we will see - I've supported him from day one, and if he is to go then I'd be the first one to shake his hand for the hard-work he has put in, and thank him for leaving us in a very healthy position both on and off the pitch.  

[valleyram]

I just can't agree - you get 3 subs in a match.

 

Forsyth, Freeman, Buxton, Keogh, Hughes, Sammon and Martin all under-performed yesterday.

against reading, Grant, Smith, Bryson, Martin, Ward, Russell, Eustace and Hughes under-performed.

against Bolton, Grant, and Eustace under-performed.

Against Burnley, Grant, Bryson,Keogh,Coutts, Ward, Russell, Freeman, Hughes and Buxton all under-performed

Against Yeovil, Bryson and Forsyth under-performed

Against Leicester, Forsyth Bryson, Keogh, Coutts, Hendrick, Martin and Hughes under-performed

Against Brighton, Russell under-performed

Against Oldham, Forsyth and Davies under-performed

Against Blackburn, Forsyth, Bryson, Keogh, Hendrick, Ward, Freeman and Buxton all under-performed

 

Now i'm not sure who was subbed, but usually a lot of them were - but in a lot of cases, there have been a lot of under-performers.

 

Bryson appears in 5 of them, yet in the other 4 games he played he has been very good. So, what do you do with him? drop him? and yet we have to think about who comes in, Keogh is in 4 of them - do we played Gjokaj there? or take a chance on Eustace at centre back? we have no viable options.

 

We aren't Leicester, our first team squad is half the size - we don't have the luxury of options, even in midfield now we're struggling with Coutts, Hendrick and Bailey out injured. We've got to play with what we have, and none of them have really been consistent this season.. 

ive never read as much pish in all my life , Bryson has easily been derbys most consistent player this season , that reading would bring tears to a glass eye

[Ambitious]

ive never read as much pish in all my life , Bryson has easily been derbys most consistent player this season , that reading would bring tears to a glass eye

 

I've watched every single game this season, analysed every single game this season.

 

Bryson has had 5 bad games, and 4 really god games, and has been 5th best player so far this season.

 

obviously this is just my opinion, from watching game analysing good and bad parts of their games, time on the ball, pass conversion rate...etc but I find that this is a better option than just watching the game and going off that. 

[steveram1962]

For all the Clough fans out there where will you be if we get turned over on Saturday then lose to Leeds and Ipswich? Act then to sack him and Season will still be alive leave any later and we will be....  eeerm..... now what is the word.......??

[Ambitious]

For all the Clough fans out there where will you be if we get turned over on Saturday then lose to Leeds and Ipswich? Act then to sack him and Season will still be alive leave any later and we will be....  eeerm..... now what is the word.......??

 

No, not for me. 

 

I'll be pissed off but certainly won't be calling for his head, but then again it'll be a very cold day in hell when you hear me mutter Clough out. 

 

Closest I came was when we lost to Scunny at home (4-1 or whatever) - but no, if the fans start to get to much I will simply stop attending games, and depending on who the new manager is dependent on if I carry on watching Derby.

 

I like Clough, I like what he is trying to do - if he is sacked and replaced by a warnock type, I am gone.. just subscribe to ramsplayer and watch games as and when. 

[steveram1962]

You know what I like him too...... just think he is short of what we need.

[Ambitious]

You know what I like him too...... just think he is short of what we need.

 

Until there is an outstanding candidate though, what do you do? sack Clough and bring in someone else to fail? 

 

I think without promotion or a viable top 6 fight, then he will be let go at the end of his contract. (end of next season) but for me, if an candidate with excellent credentials (i can't really think of one, in or out of work who would come here, but anyway) then I'd agree to letting him go. 

 

I'm scratching my head thinking of who could come in and do better IMO - i'm drawing blanks.

[jimbobram]

To be fair I dont want Clough sacked......I would expect him to take the honourable way out and resign

Never going to happen, this will be the best job he gets

[Mr Tibbs]

For everyone having a moan,

What do you expect when your team of triers have a brilliant first half but then see the other team bring on three or four players that probably cost more than our whole squad?

I thought we were far from brilliant, Private. Showing a very un-clinical performance infront of goal again. Our final ball wasn't good enough 9/10 and we need better finishing than what was on show.

I thought the defending was unforgivable after what happened Saturday too. We're just easy to beat at the moment. I hope we change these two traits for Saturday. Or the improved defending at least!

[WilkoRam]

Until there is an outstanding candidate though, what do you do? sack Clough and bring in someone else to fail?

Why would they fail? I'm not saying they wouldn't but there's nothing to say they will. It's a complete unknown. I can see why people are therefore reluctant to change things. There is a possibility a new manager could come in, do worse, have us playing ugly football and be battling the drop. Better the devil you know.

But then there's just as much possibility another manager can take us the next step, to have us kick on.

So do we accept where we are and be happy we're not struggling against the drop and see some nice football at times or dare to dream a little bigger and take the risk?

[Ambitious]

Why would they fail? I'm not saying they wouldn't but there's nothing to say they will. It's a complete unknown. I can see why people are therefore reluctant to change things. There is a possibility a new manager could come in, do worse, have us playing ugly football and be battling the drop. Better the devil you know.

But then there's just as much possibility another manager can take us the next step, to have us kick on.

So do we accept where we are and be happy we're not struggling against the drop and see some nice football at times or dare to dream a little bigger and take the risk?

 

Better the devil you know 

[WilkoRam]

Better the devil you know

Fair enough. Can't criticise that at all. I can completely understand and if I'm honest I'd worry about who the board then appointed. It's not just who can do better but who the board choose. They could hire the wrong man for the job and we could be screwed. It's a gamble and it's relying on the board to get a better man for the job. It's putting a lot of faith in the board.

[B4ev6is]

I think our defance was really good last night apart from about 80 mins mark we had some tired legs out there. But first goal was really soft should done better. But there secound no way could stoped that just a thunder bolt. There nurgent is like our struper runs up and smacks them hard and low.

[PrivateDerby]

I thought we were far from brilliant, Private. Showing a very un-clinical performance infront of goal again. Our final ball wasn't good enough 9/10 and we need better finishing than what was on show.

I thought the defending was unforgivable after what happened Saturday too. We're just easy to beat at the moment. I hope we change these two traits for Saturday. Or the improved defending at least!

Sorry mate, I just got carried away again...

I did think it was a good first half though, a bit scrappy and as you say nowhere near as good in front of goal as we should be but other than that we attacked well and got stuck in.

I did say before i was disappointed with the result because I could see everything unfolding in front of us, which isn't nice to watch when you know we can win. Agree though, we're stuck in a rut and I'm making excuses but I still don't think we should panic.

Imagine the lift Cloughie and the lads will get if we beat forest on Saturday, they'll be no stopping us then

[B4ev6is]

Hey i just think lads were really unlucky

[jimbobram]

I think our defance was really good last night apart from about 80 mins mark we had some tired legs out there. But first goal was really soft should done better. But there secound no way could stoped that just a thunder bolt. There nurgent is like our struper runs up and smacks them hard and low.

Nugent didn't score though ? and if you mean knockaert then it went in off the bar

[Ambitious]

I don't know what the reaction is for, especially by people who didn't go.

It was a drab game, lost by one free kick and one spawny goal - nothing more or nothing less.

Will Hughes was absolute garbage tonight, as was Freeman. I need to re-watch the game but on the face of it, he quality was in the gutter, by both sides

Too many individual errors absolutely piss all to do with Clough, but some people on here need a scapegoat and it might as well be the manager! Cloughs fault that knockaert scored a free kick? Give over.

 

I've just re-watched the game, and done me bits-and-bobs... took my mind off the actual crisis.

 

We didn't play as bad as first thought, feel bad for lamenting Freeman - when looking back, apart from a few dodgy moments he was largely okay and made a goal-line clearance early doors of the game which was massively important.

 

But, it highlighted Hughes - christ alive!! he was awful, had to rub my eyes a few times, could have sworn I saw the ghost of Paul Thirlwell somewhere underneath that white hair 

 

Anyway, will write my September report now - and look back at what has ended a history changing month!