Say We Get Into An Automatic Promotion-Chasing Position

[jimbobram]

The point about money wasn't an excuse, I just find it funny when people try and go on about quality on opening day. Who knows where teams will end up. Ultimately we ended up taking a point when 3 seemed on offer. Oh well, the season is 46 matches long, and we've played one. We'll get some harsh results, some lucky results. Sometimes teams will get lucky pushing us late, many won't. At the end of the day nothing waters down this kind of nonsense like it being trotted out every time something doesn't go exactly our way, and as sick of us conceding equalisers as some might be, this kind of overreaction is not only sickening, tiring and ridiculous, but doesn't even reflect reality. In fact, it seems to just reflect a childish nature and lack of a proper memory of past events.

Now, I'm sure someone is reading the above and thinking "doesn't reflect reality, I know what I've seen". The question though is do you? How many times last season in the league did we give up a winning position to draw late on? A grand total of once, against Sheffield Wednesday, on opening day. How many times did we snatch a draw from a losing position though? Four times, including once against Blackburn, at home.

This reaction is absolutely pathetic, and speaks more to an immature nature of some people than anything else.

And away. we was 2 up drew 2-2.

[Albert]

And away. we was 2 up drew 2-2.

I wouldn't consider a 57th minute equaliser "late".

[eranio20]

Who cares if its late or not, a goal is a goal right? Whether its the first mintue or the 91st.

The tactics were dire again; why does he insist on playing Hendrick out wide? Why no centre halves on the bench? Why take the best two best players on the pitch in Hughes and Russell off? What did Bryson do in the whole game to warrant the full 90?

I know it's the first game, but if we had won people would be harping on about us walking the league. It works both ways I'm afraid.

[BondJovi]

It is the first match of a new season. A season for which there are higher expectations, people generally feel optimistic about this season and where we can finish. Why people are reacting in such a way is because this was a winnable game, easily so. We did not drop the points through bad luck or exceptional play by the opposition, it was entirely of our own doing, not the players but the manager. Over the whole of Clough's time here he has been guilty of going too negative too soon, less so last season. Is it wrong to hope that he might have learnt it does not work?

 

But no, fresh season, new start, live on sky. 65 mins in, same old problem rears its ugly head. Even the commentators were mocking the tactics. Clough has clearly got us playing some good stuff, enough to get us into the lead and looking comfortable but he undermines all that, making himself and our club look a little bit daft.

 

It is deflating and annoying. I fear holding us back is not the players but our manager's fundamental managerial beliefs. So please tell me how that makes me pathetic?

[Albert]

Who cares if its late or not, a goal is a goal right? Whether its the first mintue or the 91st.

The tactics were dire again; why does he insist on playing Hendrick out wide? Why no centre halves on the bench? Why take the best two best players on the pitch in Hughes and Russell off?

I know it's the first game, but if we had won people would be harping on about us walking the league. It works both ways I'm afraid.

Russell on debut, another game on Tuesday and a change of shape?

Hughes is still only 18 and was still on until the 81st minute.

The only fit centrehalf we have at the moment who wasn't on the pitch was Gjokaj, and for a home game we should have as many attacking options as we can on the bench. Eustace and Smith should have been more than enough cover today.

[Albert]

It is the first match of a new season. A season for which there are higher expectations, people generally feel optimistic about this season and where we can finish. Why people are reacting in such a way is because this was a winnable game, easily so. We did not drop the points through bad luck or exceptional play by the opposition, it was entirely of our own doing, not the players but the manager. Over the whole of Clough's time here he has been guilty of going too negative too soon, less so last season. Is it wrong to hope that he might have learnt it does not work?

 

But no, fresh season, new start, live on sky. 65 mins in, same old problem rears its ugly head. Even the commentators were mocking the tactics. Clough has clearly got us playing some good stuff, enough to get us into the lead and looking comfortable but he undermines all that, making himself and our club look a little bit daft.

 

It is deflating and annoying. I fear holding us back is not the players but our manager's fundamental managerial beliefs. So please tell me how that makes me pathetic?

Over the whole of Clough's time here he has been guilty of going too negative too soon

The above quote is utter toss. Justify this, because the numbers don't back it up. We've had one bad season for conceding late, that is it. Last season we were fine as well. This just seems like another stick to beat the manager with when there's little to complain about.

[Duracell]

The point about money wasn't an excuse, I just find it funny when people try and go on about quality on opening day. Who knows where teams will end up. Ultimately we ended up taking a point when 3 seemed on offer. Oh well, the season is 46 matches long, and we've played one. We'll get some harsh results, some lucky results. Sometimes teams will get lucky pushing us late, many won't. At the end of the day nothing waters down this kind of nonsense like it being trotted out every time something doesn't go exactly our way, and as sick of us conceding equalisers as some might be, this kind of overreaction is not only sickening, tiring and ridiculous, but doesn't even reflect reality. In fact, it seems to just reflect a childish nature and lack of a proper memory of past events.

Now, I'm sure someone is reading the above and thinking "doesn't reflect reality, I know what I've seen". The question though is do you? How many times last season in the league did we give up a winning position to draw late on? A grand total of once, against Sheffield Wednesday, on opening day. How many times did we snatch a draw from a losing position though? Four times, including once against Blackburn, at home.

This reaction is absolutely pathetic, and speaks more to an immature nature of some people than anything else.

I would normally agree Albert, but as I say...it's not like what we saw today was unusual, different, or not seen before. It was the sort of decision which changed the game in a way we all expect, to change formation and take attacking players off.

 

I wanted a discussion on the subject of whether Clough would ever change the tactics if we were in a different position to the one we are in now. I don't think that's immature and I don't think it's fair to be called that based on the points raised in this thread...

[BondJovi]

The above quote is utter toss. Justify this, because the numbers don't back it up. We've had one bad season for conceding late, that is it. Last season we were fine as well. This just seems like another stick to beat the manager with when there's little to complain about.

 

I don't feel the need to go and pull out a load of stats, I am not saying it happens everygame, I am saying it is his weakness and it has costs us points over the course of his time here, that isn't just losing points but also in gaining points. It is just my opinion! Say you disagree, but don't call me(and others) pathetic and immature. I expected better from you. Little boxes filled with numbers can only tell you so much.

[Albert]

I would normally agree Albert, but as I say...it's not like what we saw today was unusual, different, or not seen before. It was the sort of decision which changed the game in a way we all expect, to change formation and take attacking players off.

 

I wanted a discussion on the subject of whether Clough would ever change the tactics if we were in a different position to the one we are in now. I don't think that's immature and I don't think it's fair to be called that based on the points raised in this thread...

Again, the numbers don't back up this being a usual result of any such play. The fact that late equalisers scored to conceded last season was 4-1 says it all on that front. That's what pathetic about it, there is nothing backing up the negative effect from last season. People can waffle on about Clough being defensive minded, but to actually claim it's had a negative effect is going to require something to back it up, which the numbers quite simply don't. Today was the first time we conceded a late equaliser since Sheffield Wednesday this time last year, if anything that suggests this "negative play" that "we all expect" is actually doing the intended job.

Also, can you describe how the goal today was directly caused by negative play, because that goal could have been scored late regardless of formation, the only thing that could really be argued is momentum, but even that doesn't make sense in the context of how it happened. Yes, some might have wanted to see Russell stay on longer, but the overall reaction just isn't justifiable.

[Alph]

Bris must be reading all this wondering why he gets so much aggro.

Thing about Bris is he's absorbed a totally different football culture so that's why he's extra harsh. Maybe (I hope you don't mind me saying this Bris) he has too high expectations and his comparisons are ambitious. But tell me when you're watching another ball lumped over Martin's head in the 80th min that you don't wish we concentrated more on that boring tippy tappy Spanish *****.

I'd rather get caught out a few times trying to defend with the ball than what happened today.

Having said that I'm not at all frustrated. I'm sitting here rather relaxed. Today doesn't mean much to me at all. It's 1 game. I think there's some knee jerking. However you felt about Derby's chances for the season before today I don't think you should let this game change your mind.

I though we were going to be brave and confident after Wolves away last year. It takes a few games to change an opinion. So stick by your guns fellas.

[eranio20]

How can you justify a home side sitting back against a team who are no better than ourselves for half a hour ?

Clough looked emotionless all game, he sits on the bench with his fingers in his mouth like a nervous wreck. How's that good for the players? Hughes was fuming to be subbed, great way to build his confidence isn't it? Take the best player on the pitch off and end the game with John Eustace- Cloughs so called "experienced man to hold onto a leed".

How much longer will it take for him to attack, attempt to grab the second goal and stop fookin inviting pressure? Only five years almost thus far.

[eddie]

Who cares if its late or not, a goal is a goal right? Whether its the first mintue or the 91st.

The tactics were dire again; why does he insist on playing Hendrick out wide? Why no centre halves on the bench? Why take the best two best players on the pitch in Hughes and Russell off? What did Bryson do in the whole game to warrant the full 90?

I know it's the first game, but if we had won people would be harping on about us walking the league. It works both ways I'm afraid.

 

BCO

[Albert]

I don't feel the need to go and pull out a load of stats, I am not saying it happens everygame, I am saying it is his weakness and it has costs us points over the course of his time here, that isn't just losing points but also in gaining points. It is just my opinion! Say you disagree, but don't call me(and others) pathetic and immature. I expected better from you. Little boxes filled with numbers can only tell you so much.

...cost us points? We got 4 late equalisers last season, and conceded one.

What is immature is the huge overreaction to a single result, and in particular the tendency to take a point to ridiculous levels to try and make a point that just doesn't seem to be there.

To be perfectly honest, I don't like the idea of sitting back, but ultimately nothing backs up the point that it is costing us anything, in fact, over the course of his time here it is more than arguable that he'd done it well and to success, as annoying as that is. Personally I'd rather that we go on the offensive when leading, but that's not how we're doing it. That is a clash of opinions though, and ultimately I can't find any reason to think that how it's been done (and to be perfectly honest Nigel isn't even close to the most negative manager around, far from it in fact) is doing us harm.

[Dimmu]

Thing is Hughes was our best midfielder in terms of defence and attack today.

Couldn't believe when he was taken off. If we build our game around him, we should at least have some kind of back up plan if he is taken off. If we had, I certainly didn't see it. Or if it was to be completely lost, then yes.

 

I agree with NC that Hughes must be used as much as possible. Propably our best player and his value will rise game after game. But FFS, rest of the game was utter ****.

[cannable]

If Clough wanted to kill the game off he should have done one of two things. 

 

1. Kept everybody on and gone for the jugular.

2. Brought Bryson off for Eustace and allowed the team to just keep possession without openly looking to attack. 

 

He clearly wants us to play attractive, attacking football. The only problem is, he doesn't have faith in this philosophy. 

[Albert]

If Clough wanted to kill the game off he should have done one of two things. 

 

1. Kept everybody on and gone for the jugular.

2. Brought Bryson off for Eustace and allowed the team to just keep possession without openly looking to attack. 

 

He clearly wants us to play attractive, attacking football. The only problem is, he doesn't have faith in this philosophy.

...how would taking Bryson instead help anything? How would it have prevented that goal in fact?

[ladyram]

Guys. It's gonna be a long night modding these threads and the boss is currently pushing out the z's.

So please, let's not insult other members opinions by resorting to silly name calling. I'm sure everyone can do it so shurrup and have some pizza and a beer.

[notts_ram]

I like irony, I like the comments about Clough killing the game, the match was such an exciting spectacle upto the point that Russell was substituted after all

[Alph]

How can you justify a home side sitting back against a team who are no better than ourselves for half a hour ?

Clough looked emotionless all game, he sits on the bench with his fingers in his mouth like a nervous wreck. How's that good for the players? Hughes was fuming to be subbed, great way to build his confidence isn't it? Take the best player on the pitch off and end the game with John Eustace- Cloughs so called "experienced man to hold onto a leed".

How much longer will it take for him to attack, attempt to grab the second goal and stop fookin inviting pressure? Only five years almost thus far.

I'm not defending Nigel as I thought replacing Bryson and Ward with Neil Sullivan and Andy Garner couldn't have possibly made things worse.

But some of the distribution and especially the decisions Ward made were out of his control.

For example, if he's asking them to sit back then why do they rush the ball forward so quickly? That's surely a contradiction. Some really poor decisions from individuals today. Only Martin and Hughes looked like they'd met before 4pm.

For a team trying to defend the number of forward passes doesn't make sense. Or if you prefer, a team trying to kill the game with a second goal had too many bodies too eager to to retreat to the 18yrd box to even hope to construct a decent attacking move.

Bryson, Forsyth, Buxton and Ward were all poor by their own standards. Bryson and Ward were less than 50% of their own best.

Not good enough from any of them. They can and will play better

[cannable]

...how would taking Bryson instead help anything? How would it have prevented that goal in fact?

 

Rather than having having Bryson buzzing around around everywhere Eustace would remained deep and calm in the situation of killing the game off.