Points v League placement debate

[Bris Vegas]

No we haven't, it means there are 11 teams better than us, as opposed to 9, it would mean that we haven't progressed as well as other teams in the league. The points total is irrevalant, it's where you finish in the league.

 

So if you win the league with a record of W35 D3 L0

 

Then go and improve that to W36 D2 L0 and lose out to 1st place on GD

 

Have you as a team improved or not?

 

Of course you have..

 

I can't believe we're even having this arguement..

[rynny]

Another anology..

Which Stoke looked better or which Stoke took more criticism?

The one of 2 years ago which finished 14th on 45 points

or..

The one last year which finished a place higher in 13th but on 42 points

Or Bendan Rodgers Swansea who finsihed 11th on 47 points or Laudrup's Swansea who finished 9th on 46 points?

Stoke were doing extremely well at the start of this season and up to xmas had the 3rd best defence in the league. They then fell away and because the bad run was in the 2nd part of the season everyone remembers that. If their season was the other way round Pulis would not have been sacked.

Swansea had more plaudits this year than last. And won a major trophy.

[Bris Vegas]

League position. All day, every day.

Take the season under Burley where we lost to Preston in the play off semi finals. That season we played some excellent football.

Now look at the season we went up under R2-D2. That season we played extremely bland, route one stuff and a majority if our wins were by the odd goal and we ground them out.

Did anyone give a toss that we regressed in the way we played??? Did they f**k cus we were too busy doing the Conga in Wembley car parks...

 

That's totally irrelevant because we improved our points difference by 9..

 

We've jumped up a few places with a lower points record.. It's a competely different scenario.

[Bris Vegas]

Stoke were doing extremely well at the start of this season and up to xmas had the 3rd best defence in the league. They then fell away and because the bad run was in the 2nd part of the season everyone remembers that. If their season was the other way round Pulis would not have been sacked.

Swansea had more plaudits this year than last. And won a major trophy.

 

They might have played better football I agree.. They also won a trophy that's great..

 

But did they collect as many points as the season before?

 

If they improve at the same rate for the next 10 seasons they'll finish on 36 points and be relegated? Not really improving is it..

 

So I'll ask again.. If Derby improve at a -3 points record each season like last season they'll be relegated in 5 years..

[Ambitious]

What Bris is trying to do is standardise the league for each and every year - so finishing on 71 points and finishing 6th is worse than finishing on 74 points and finishing 10th (lets say for arguments sake) to him anyway.

 

However, the point of view I take is that each season is different - you're pitted against the other 23 teams for that year, whether or not you think it is a bad or good division. Your job is to finish higher than the rest, this season we finished 10th (a good seasons in many aspects) but finished on less points than we did when we finished 12th. 

 

I would just look at performances, last season we didn't look upto much and we were second best more often than not, this season was a completely different stories - regardless of what the results showed, no matter how bitter or twisted some Derby fans are, it would be hard to deny we lost more points that we should of won as opposed to won more points than we should of lost.

 

If you're performances are on point, then there is no cause for concern or splitting hairs between different years - which is moronic anyway IMO.

[froggg]

Looking at points totals forgets about changes to other teams etc..

League position over 46 games dives the relative standing when compared to oponents

We have improved compared to other teams in the division because we have finished higher than in the past.

You can't compare points totals with previous years because we are playing against teams that are different (either through promotion,relegation or transfers)

 

 

Smart sod...... B)

[Guest]

So if you win the league with a record of W35 D3 L0

 

Then go and improve that to W36 D2 L0 and lose out to 1st place on GD

 

Have you as a team improved or not?

 

Of course you have..

 

I can't believe we're even having this arguement..

So your saying when we finished 4th that season after we won the league we improved, or that we didn't progress in the same manner as everybody else?

One season we had were league champs, the next season we were only the 4th best team, no we didn't improve.

So a team in the WC wins it one season, then the next one don't get out of the qualifying group despite getting more points has improved.....no don't think so.

[rynny]

Yes they would have improved..

Regardless of how well others have done, it's all about your own side..

Take the Olympics for example..

Joke Bloggs is a 100m runner with a personal best of 9.85 in which he won the 2008 Olympics.. The next Olympics in 2012 he goes and smashes his record with a time of 9.75.. Unfortunately for him, Usain Bolt won in a time of 9.69

Has Joe Bloggs improved or not?

what about the relegated hypothesis that I gave you, or is that too difficult to argue against?

The olympics and sprinting is judged differently than football. It is like co paring a cow to a goat, there are lots of similarities but at the end of the day it is a different beast altogether.

[rynny]

What Bris is trying to do is standardise the league for each and every year - so finishing on 71 points and finishing 6th is worse than finishing on 74 points and finishing 10th (lets say for arguments sake) to him anyway.

However, the point of view I take is that each season is different - you're pitted against the other 23 teams for that year, whether or not you think it is a bad or good division. Your job is to finish higher than the rest, this season we finished 10th (a good seasons in many aspects) but finished on less points than we did when we finished 12th.

I would just look at performances, last season we didn't look upto much and we were second best more often than not, this season was a completely different stories - regardless of what the results showed, no matter how bitter or twisted some Derby fans are, it would be hard to deny we lost more points that we should of won as opposed to won more points than we should of lost.

If you're performances are on point, then there is no cause for concern or splitting hairs between different years - which is moronic anyway IMO.

That is what I am trying to get at. Thanks Ambitious.

Anyway forest going down with a fridge freezer in the stands, a fridge freezer in the stands, a fridge freezer in the stands!!

[Bris Vegas]

So your saying when we finished 4th that season after we won the league we improved, or that we didn't progress in the same manner as everybody else?

One season we had were league champs, the next season we were only the 4th best team, no we didn't improve.

So a team in the WC wins it one season, then the next one don't get out of the qualifying group despite getting more points has improved.....no don't think so.

 

Those example are ridiculous.. You can't compare like for like because it's not points based..

 

Did we win the league on X points then finish 4th on X + 4 points? If we decreased in points then that's completely different..

[Bris Vegas]

what about the relegated hypothesis that I gave you, or is that too difficult to argue against?

The olympics and sprinting is judged differently than football. It is like co paring a cow to a goat, there are lots of similarities but at the end of the day it is a different beast altogether.

 

In the relegation hypothesis then yes you have improved.. Of course you have..

 

If you finsih on 36 points umm.. 8 wins 12 draws and 18 losses

 

Then you finish in 42 points as 10 wins 12 draws and 16 losses then you've improved..

[rynny]

In the relegation hypothesis then yes you have improved.. Of course you have..

If you finsih on 36 points umm.. 8 wins 12 draws and 18 losses

Then you finish in 42 points as 10 wins 12 draws and 16 losses then you've improved..

I get what you are saying but it is a ridiculous way of looking at if teams are improving.

[Bris Vegas]

I get what you are saying but it is a ridiculous way of looking at if teams are improving.

 

Why is it?

 

Being -3 points away from the playoff average is a strange way of saying we've improved..

[Guest]

Those example are ridiculous.. You can't compare like for like because it's not points based..

 

Did we win the league on X points then finish 4th on X + 4 points? If we decreased in points then that's completely different..

Why is it irrelevant, you are choosing to focus on an area that is not a concept of measurement in improvement when in a competition, the results are judged on who finishes higher, not who gets more points than the previous year.

We increased in points, yet finished fourth, how can that be an improvement?

[Bris Vegas]

Why is it irrelevant, you are choosing to focus on an area that is not a concept of measurement in improvement when in a competition, the results are judged on who finishes higher, not who gets more points than the previous year.

We increased in points, yet finished fourth, how can that be an improvement?

 

Is that true?

 

Then we improved.. But the 3 teams above us improved at a higher rate than us.. Simple really.

[Guest]

Is that true?

 

Then we improved.. But the 3 teams above us improved at a higher rate than us.. Simple really.

No not, we failed to take as many points off the teams that finished above us, hence meaning that we hadn't improved, just that the teams we did beat, got worse.

[CumbrianRam]

The way I see is that points are the only way to see how your specific results during a season have improved, however you get promoted on league placement and not a specific total of points, so I will take 2nd on 79 points, to third on 85 every day of the year and I think Bris would too. It is possible to not improve and win if your competition is weaker.

 

When in mid-table in the Championship I don't see much difference in finishing 10th on 61 points and 12th on 64 points rather than the low prize money. Players aren't going to make their mind up over this and the only people who would take any notice are us saddos on internet forums, all I really care is about how we failed to reach/working towards the play-offs which should be our target from now on.

[Bris Vegas]

No not, we failed to take as many points off the teams that finished above us, hence meaning that we hadn't improved, just that the teams we did beat, got worse.

 

What are you talking about? That would be specific games against the top sides..

 

But if you finish on higher points then you've improved.. Because somewhere along the line you will have won more, drawn more or lost less than the previous season..

 

I can't believe how you're not getting this..

 

If Man Utd win the league on W34 D4 L0 and their 4 draws being against Man City x2, Chelsea and Aston Villa and they comfortably finish 1st..

 

The next season they go one better and W35 D3 L0 and the draws being against Man City x2 and Aston Villa but Man City win the league with W36 D2 L0 with the 2 draws against Man Utd then that's an improvement for Man Utd obviously.. They won more games and drew less and claimed more points..

 

Just because Man City improved dramatically doesn't mean Man Utd haven't improved..

 

Obviously like Cumbrian says anyone would take a 2nd place in the NPC on 79 points rather than a 3rd palce finish on 84 points... But that's not the arguement here..

 

You're trying to tell me placement is directly linked to improvement which is absolutely false as the points averages change every season.. Our 10th last season is only 13th on aggregate for the past 6 years which is below where we finished last season..

 

I can easily say that Stoke of 2011 was never in danger of going down and lauded by the pundits (despite finishing 14th) and the Stoke of 2012 was in massive danger and criticised by the pundits (despite finishing 13th)..

 

But surely they made an improvement last year so why did Tony Pulis get sacked and why were the fans bricking it towards the end of the season?

[DCFCfranco]

I personally go with league position. Seeing as its the most important thing at the end of the day.

[ramsbottom]

That's totally irrelevant because we improved our points difference by 9..

We've jumped up a few places with a lower points record.. It's a competely different scenario.

It isn't irrelevant at all, it's merely another way some people gauge improvement. Yes we improved both our league standing and points tally so we must've bee a better team then???Wrong... Seeing as you appear to worship at the alter of Tika-Taka you have to agree that the football we played under Burley was vastly better than the dross served up by his vertically challenged countryman???

As rynny has pointed out if a team gets relegated having gained a greater number of points than the previous seasons is that improvement???