SillyBilly Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 The record speaks for itself, its appalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
top 6 finish Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Exactly.You can't argue with the facts or the league position.A proper manager would establish what his budget is for transfers and wages and either agree or tell them to feck off.Clough can't do that because he couldn't get another job, a proper manager could and would.We will never move on with this man because they have given him enough funds to improve and he has failed.No one will give him more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maydrakin Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Does it mean that the wage bill will need to come down further to be "slightly above budget", due to the reduction in season ticket sales meaning a loss in turnover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelTheRam Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 I don't know if anyone picked up on it but our away game against Blackburn was a milestone for Nigel Clough.. 100 NPC away games since taking charge During those 100 games.. We've.. Won 22 Draw 26 Lose 52 92 points from 100 NPC games.. 0.92 points per game away record Looking at the NPC now, only 3 teams have a worse record than 0.92 points pergame average.. One is bottom of the league, another has won only 2 games in 20 odd and the other is us.. Nigel Clough clearly needs a new away formula.. Because the one he has doesn't work.. In fact the one he has is relegation form. Fortunately we also play home games. You could look at many teams in this league and if they only played away games their record would also be relegation form. A quick look at the table shows - Leicester 5 away wins 6th place (1.0 points per game) Bolton 4 away wins 7th (0.86) 'Boro 5 away wins 10th (0.81) Leeds only 3 away wins 11th (0.76) Outside the top 3 Charlton have the best away record with 9 wins but are only 3 points better off than us because they have a poor home record. Actually getting close to an average 1 point per AWAY game is pretty steady (WIN HOME/DRAW AWAY), and a good foundation, although you'll need good home form to even make the playoffs - like Leicester, who have won 3 more than us, but lost one more at home So what really is your point? What are you comparing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelTheRam Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Forgot to say - we are 0.86 for this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 ....and remind me of the era in which Commons was acquired.I'll remind you-it was the period in which AP was telling us that evidence suggested you needed to be running a wage bill of £12/13m (players,that is),and he proceeded to run this up (and more).So we don't know what wages Commons was paid,and we don't know how big a signing on fee we had to pay.Of course those were the days when we might have been able to fight off competition for quality free transfers (unfortunately,we were also able to fight off competition for junk). When Clough was talking about £2m he was obviously talking about a situation where you had to pay for same ,in the absence of any comparable free agents (and I repeat nobody dissented with his assessment) Hardly excuses,more an appreciation of current circumstances.We face stiff competition for any quality frees from clubs with far greater fire power than us.Glick told us we couldn't afford Sharp's wages.QED. Sorry didn't we offer Commons an even better contract to try and keep him? And that was at a time when we were reducing the wage bill. But now we couldn't afford the wages he was on originally despite being able to offer him more than that before he left? Am I getting that right? If so I'm very confused. We can't afford a free transfer now due to higher wages and signing on fees? Is that what we're saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Sorry it posted twice so this is the 2nd that I've edited to be blank. Apart from this message explaining it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Sorry didn't we offer Commons an even better contract to try and keep him? And that was at a time when we were reducing the wage bill. But now we couldn't afford the wages he was on originally despite being able to offer him more than that before he left? Am I getting that right? If so I'm very confused. We can't afford a free transfer now due to higher wages and signing on fees? Is that what we're saying? Well yes,this supposed £15k/week offer,with an extra year to boot,to Commons (along with the supposed mega bid for Hooper) has been exercising my mind.All of this at a time when,as you say,we were reducing the wage bill.With a very small squad as it is,I wonder how much smaller it would have had to be to fit in Commons. Nobody was saying we can't afford a free transfer now,just speculating on how we could compete on wages for the real quality variety,as our wage bill (judged by the 11/12 table) doesn't appear to be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Nobody has EVER said he screwed us up as a club! This is about the future and limitations and ambition. Clough is like the first car you own when you learn to drive. It plods along, only good on short journeys (from A to B ), with scary moments on the way, nearly doesn't make it. Has no new-fangled gadgets and gizmos (what's a MP3?), and pretty soon you know it's going to fail badly. So you think about the nice reliable motor to replace it. Do you get the sporty version that's all noisy and exciting, but has the potential to crash? or do you get the reliable, well-engineered car that won't get pulses rating but has enough quality to get you to where you are trying to go. this analogly could have worked if derby were formed about 5 years ago and clough was our first ever manager. In actual fact we already bought shiny flashy cars that turned out to be rubbish and not particularly flashy either. we did have a great car back in the late 90s, but we ran up such debts running it we almost had to go back on the buses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted April 20, 2013 Author Share Posted April 20, 2013 Fortunately we also play home games. You could look at many teams in this league and if they only played away games their record would also be relegation form. A quick look at the table shows - Leicester 5 away wins 6th place (1.0 points per game) Bolton 4 away wins 7th (0.86) 'Boro 5 away wins 10th (0.81) Leeds only 3 away wins 11th (0.76) Outside the top 3 Charlton have the best away record with 9 wins but are only 3 points better off than us because they have a poor home record. Actually getting close to an average 1 point per AWAY game is pretty steady (WIN HOME/DRAW AWAY), and a good foundation, although you'll need good home form to even make the playoffs - like Leicester, who have won 3 more than us, but lost one more at home So what really is your point? What are you comparing? Erm aren't we in the bottom 3 this season for away form? And his 0.92 is in line with one of the worst in the NPC? What did you think I meant? That I expect us to get your standard 1.9 points per game away from home for automatic promotion.. You tried to make out that getting close to 1 point per game is good? Erm no it isn't.. Leicester, Boro and Leeds have woeful away records this season too that fall in line with those near the bottom. They also should be revising their away tactics given they all have a better home records than us.. Look at other sides in the league that are near the bottom with played/points Peterbrough 21/25 Millwall 21/28 Huddersfield 22/24 Sheffield Wed 22/27 Barnsley 21/21 These are teams at the bottom with all better away records than NC.. In Millwall's case they have a solid 1.33 points per game record.. Just because a couple of teams near the top 6 have poor away records this season doesn't mean it's a viable excuse to brush of Clough's poor away record over 100 games.. Like I said, whatever he's doing, isn't working.. He needs to change it.. And so do Boro, Leeds and leicester by the looks of things.. Hence why all 3 are struggling to make the playoffs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I'm a Clough fan. I think his transfer dealings have been excellent, his focus on the young players, his desire to play good football, his ability to get improvement from players struggling elsewhere. However his away record is still poor. Is this because we set up differently at home and away? Is this because players with limited Championship experience find it harder away from home? I'm not sure but I do believe a strong centre half pairing is important. I think having to sell Shackell has made a difference. Our one season with him in our away record seemed to improve. I would like to see an experienced centre half brought in in the summer without having to sell Keogh. Will Clough be allowed that luxury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Fortunately we also play home games. You could look at many teams in this league and if they only played away games their record would also be relegation form. A quick look at the table shows - Leicester 5 away wins 6th place (1.0 points per game) Bolton 4 away wins 7th (0.86) 'Boro 5 away wins 10th (0.81) Leeds only 3 away wins 11th (0.76) Outside the top 3 Charlton have the best away record with 9 wins but are only 3 points better off than us because they have a poor home record. Actually getting close to an average 1 point per AWAY game is pretty steady (WIN HOME/DRAW AWAY), and a good foundation, although you'll need good home form to even make the playoffs - like Leicester, who have won 3 more than us, but lost one more at home So what really is your point? What are you comparing? But it's not just this season is it. It's been terrible ever since he took over. Clearly there is something wrong within the club, it's not a one off this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I'm a Clough fan. I think his transfer dealings have been excellent, his focus on the young players, his desire to play good football, his ability to get improvement from players struggling elsewhere. However his away record is still poor. Is this because we set up differently at home and away? Is this because players with limited Championship experience find it harder away from home? I'm not sure but I do believe a strong centre half pairing is important. I think having to sell Shackell has made a difference. Our one season with him in our away record seemed to improve. I would like to see an experienced centre half brought in in the summer without having to sell Keogh. Will Clough be allowed that luxury? you could be right about shackell improving our away form. but has bringing in keough improved our standard of football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notts_ram Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 The only thing that is constant with our away form is different playing personnel, same results. I would dare to suggest then that the set up/balance/formation/tactics of the side in away games need a serious rethink, or without being sarcastic a think in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelTheRam Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 I'm just saying that you don't need a fantastic away form to be competing for the playoffs. And, as your examples show, having a better one than we have now doesn't guarantee anything - all those teams are still below us. Yes, of course there's room for improvement, we all know that. And improvement will be necessary to compete higher than the playoffs where you are probably going to need getting on for 1.5 points per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needles Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Exactly.You can't argue with the facts or the league position.A proper manager would establish what his budget is for transfers and wages and either agree or tell them to feck off.Clough can't do that because he couldn't get another job, a proper manager could and would.We will never move on with this man because they have given him enough funds to improve and he has failed.No one will give him more. You can state facts, but you can also debate the reasons for them. If Clough had had the money forest, Leicester, or even Bristol City for that matter, have had to spend and not got us up, then fine the facts in context would speak for themselves. "A proper manager", though? What sort of inane, childish drivel is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 If anyone can find the stats for number of points dropped while in a leading postion I think that's where we'll find the answer. I might be wrong but I'm convinced that's the difference. The season before last we were conceding a huge amount of late goals and not scoring any at all. We dropped points all over the place and when games went into the last 5 minutes I was almost expecting the inevitable. Last Season we closed out the majority of the games superbly well . With maybe only peterboro from memory where we threw away a lead.?) We still were'nt scoring too many late on but if we were in the lead the points were safe. This year we're scoring late goals for fun but we've forgotten how to close out games when we've got our necks in front. Sheff Wed x 2 Cardiff Ipswich Burnley 9 points worh without even trying to think about others. I'm putting that down to leadership on the pitch. Barker was superb and Shackell pretty good at that side of the game. They'd get us rallied and we wouldn't lose. We might have been ok missing one of them, but probably shouldnt have lost both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needles Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 But it's not just this season is it. It's been terrible ever since he took over. Clearly there is something wrong within the club, it's not a one off this season. Something wrong within the club? Are you quite sane? It has seldom in all of its history been so united from top to bottom, so focussed on a common purpose and approach to playing football. The club is in good shape; the team slightly short of experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Exactly.You can't argue with the facts or the league position.A proper manager would establish what his budget is for transfers and wages and either agree or tell them to feck off.Clough can't do that because he couldn't get another job, a proper manager could and would.We will never move on with this man because they have given him enough funds to improve and he has failed.No one will give him more. It's strange isn't it, that this guy who isn't even a 'proper manager' can keep a side in the Championship for 4 years when so many other teams who come down from the Premiership in far less of a shambolic manner than we did continue that slide and end up languishing in League 1 or worse. Still, I suppose you are speaking from experience, what with you being good at Football Manager. I bet you even think that it's a 'simulator'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastKentRam Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 If anyone can find the stats for number of points dropped while in a leading postion I think that's where we'll find the answer. I might be wrong but I'm convinced that's the difference. The season before last we were conceding a huge amount of late goals and not scoring any at all. We dropped points all over the place and when games went into the last 5 minutes I was almost expecting the inevitable. Last Season we closed out the majority of the games superbly well . With maybe only peterboro from memory where we threw away a lead.?) We still were'nt scoring too many late on but if we were in the lead the points were safe. This year we're scoring late goals for fun but we've forgotten how to close out games when we've got our necks in front. Sheff Wed x 2 Cardiff Ipswich Burnley 9 points worh without even trying to think about others. I'm putting that down to leadership on the pitch. Barker was superb and Shackell pretty good at that side of the game. They'd get us rallied and we wouldn't lose. We might have been ok missing one of them, but probably shouldnt have lost both. Looking at our results this season I really dont think there's enough of a pattern to say that this is a problem. We've scored some late goals, we've conceeded some late goals. We've picked up many points from losing positions and we've lost some from winning positions. The two Sheffield Wednesday games were disappointing, but apart from that there's little evidence to suggest we're not seeing out games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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