Alph Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 If the majority want him gone and are prepared to let the owners know, (loudly and often), then he will be gone. Not many boards would do what Blackburn did last year and stand by Kean through the fans protests. If enough fans made enough fuss, Clough would probably walk anyway. I really think GSE would baulk at bad publicity, their whole edifice is built on spin and sending positive messages to the money men back in the States. A riot or two would be deemed "off message" by the corporate suits and GSE would have to do summart about it rather quickly. Exactly. Just a quick question Uttox. You are always the voice of reason on here (maximum brownie points?) and you can pretty much always referee any debate by finding that middle ground. Where do you really think we're headed? How long? The wage budget is what it is Nigel does what he does. Neither will change without force. So, do the fans be patient for longer? Force a change of manager? or try to force the board into action? I've always been on Nigel's side despite all my moaning. But the seasons keep boiling down to nothingness. Our seasons have a pattern and despite all the promise we have shown in the last few years its often come undone and left us pretty fed up by February. Obviously why this happens is up for debate (manager or investment?) but you can't really argue that somewhere we're coming up short. Where though? Why does the promise always end with plain old mid-lower table boredom? It's not the Birmingham knee jerk reaction that's causing these threads. It's down to watching everybody pull away and us go on one of our predictable terrible runs. It guts people. Obviously trying to force the board could turn nasty. Getting a new manager could go either way and if we do neither and sit and hope we fluke it (which I imagine is the investors hope) we could be waiting until next year or next decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 If the majority want him gone and are prepared to let the owners know, (loudly and often), then he will be gone. Not many boards would do what Blackburn did last year and stand by Kean through the fans protests. If enough fans made enough fuss, Clough would probably walk anyway. I really think GSE would baulk at bad publicity, their whole edifice is built on spin and sending positive messages to the money men back in the States. A riot or two would be deemed "off message" by the corporate suits and GSE would have to do summart about it rather quickly. On the other hand,utch,they might realise that if they got rid of the bullet proof vest,any future bullets might find their way through.If they were to install a duffer,there'd be no hiding place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Alpha,the big question is would same policy/new manager be better? I said some time ago that I don't like the odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 When we lose on Saturday the boo's will be deafening. It's live on sky, the owners will all be watching. Demonstration time? I wonder if Nick will organise one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weston-super Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Alpha,the big question is would same policy/new manager be better? I said some time ago that I don't like the odds.I sort of agree that a new manager working under the same constraints could possibly be no different or maybe even worse if possible. But their comes a time when something needs to give for the good of the overall club. A large number of fans are totally disillusioned and falling out of love for our club and this has massive implications for our future,and obviously our finances. When something is not working the only argument should be how long do you give it before you try changing it or do you blindly drift on as you are in the hope that you might just get lucky ?. For me,we are now at a point where we need a fresh approach to take into next season with new ideas and new approaches because we have had more than long enough to surely show better progress out on the pitch than we are sadly witnessing. Clough has had a tremendously challenging job here at Derby,and all things considered as maybe done as well as he could with what he has had to work with but for the good of the club we have to try to make a possible positive change even if it later proves to be the wrong decision..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 The problem is,what is it that is "not working"? If you've embarked on a car journey and run out of petrol,with no access to more,after beating the car with a branch would whipping out the fuel pump get you there? At least you would have tried something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Alpha,the big question is would same policy/new manager be better? I said some time ago that I don't like the odds. Yeah you're right. So, do we just be patient? When is enough enough? When do you stop accepting mediocrity? Should you stop accepting mediocrity ever? If you decide to take action then who do you take it against? To be fair to the players they have shown plenty of quality this season. We've had lots of compliments. Lots of possession. We've been pretty dominant at home. The same players should be capable of playing away. But they aren't doing enough often enough. Does this highlight a weakness in the manager or a weakness is the squad depth/investment. Are we on a learning curve or stuck in limbo? Would Nigel Adkins/Paulo Di Canio come in and get these players showing more consistency and ruthlessness? Or would they struggle to cope under the financial restraints? Would Alex Mcleish apply for the job? Phil Brown maybe? Would Nigel do better if the club was sold to a rich oil tycoon? Or would we sell to a toilet attendant from Basra? That's why I'm no the fence really. That, and because 'Clough' appeals to the football romantic in me. But for those who have had enough, and this is my question, how should they proceed. Even as a patient fan I am becoming a bit frustrated watching the Play Offs drift further and further away every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I don't think the current set of players are top 8 material,as some suggest.I believe the sheer effort the players put in compensates for other things and I think our seasons fall off because it's impossible to maintain these levels of effort for a whole season.I also think we might be in trouble this year if the fans don't get behind a predominantly young team.Protests aren't exactly the right kind of environment to be playing important games under. Good questions though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Get calling sport scene talk in tommorow sort out a protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmu Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 We can moan and protest as much as we can, but in the end it's board choice do they still want to continue with their employee. Even if stadium would be empty they would be still in control, like it or not... So to see how they react, fans should do something first. Moaning here ain't enough, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I don't think the current set of players are top 8 material,as some suggest.I believe the sheer effort the players put in compensates for other things and I think our seasons fall off because it's impossible to maintain these levels of effort for a whole season.I also think we might be in trouble this year if the fans don't get behind a predominantly young team.Protests aren't exactly the right kind of environment to be playing important games under. Good questions though. So, (without trying to put words in your mouth buddy) if you had to pick an enemy then it would be the lack of investment? Would you say that threads like we've seen about 'Clough Out' would be better aimed at the board? There's room on the fence next to me btw! I just want people to read these threads and have these discussions with an open mind before they take action. It seems to me that people are getting to that point now. Or if they aren't..... Then stop WUMming on message boards with you're "Clough Out" talk fellas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I don't think the current set of players are top 8 material,as some suggest.I believe the sheer effort the players put in compensates for other things and I think our seasons fall off because it's impossible to maintain these levels of effort for a whole season.I also think we might be in trouble this year if the fans don't get behind a predominantly young team.Protests aren't exactly the right kind of environment to be playing important games under. Good questions though. So, (without trying to put words in your mouth buddy) if you had to pick an enemy then it would be the lack of investment? Would you say that threads like we've seen about 'Clough Out' would be better aimed at the board? There's room on the fence next to me btw! I just want people to read these threads and have these discussions with an open mind before they take action. It seems to me that people are getting to that point now. Or if they aren't..... Then stop WUMming on message boards with you're "Clough Out" talk fellas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 So, (without trying to put words in your mouth buddy) if you had to pick an enemy then it would be the lack of investment? Would you say that threads like we've seen about 'Clough Out' would be better aimed at the board? There's room on the fence next to me btw! I just want people to read these threads and have these discussions with an open mind before they take action. It seems to me that people are getting to that point now. Or if they aren't..... Then stop WUMming on message boards with you're "Clough Out" talk fellas! I've said before that I thought we'd embarked on this policy without sufficient starting quality and that this put a great strain on Clough.I feel sorry for him.I also talked about the vicious circle and how I didn't think they could get away with the 'patch' of increasing S/T prices -I was wrong on one count,and we'll see about the other.I was also wrong about repeating the 'judge us by our actions ' kind of words.Looking at what SR said,he waffled away about balancing various things and then introduced the term 'quality players',thus getting fans excited.He went on to suggest that a player/players would only be sold if the team could be improved by so doing. If they had the firepower to bring in the quality players we need without player sales/s being essential,then why would we contemplate selling any of our better players?Seems to me that any quality might be dependent on sales. I've never called for the removal of the owners,and in the current situation I call for the removal of nether them nor the manager.However,we're going to get nowhere next year without introducing more quality into the team and the facilitation of this is the owners' responsibility,irrespective of who the manager might be.The time for words is long past-it's now time for action or the vicious circle might have an almighty bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Cough going may not be the answer, the next manager might not be the right appointment and might do worse. There's no guarantee of better performances or results with that change. Same as with the board, there's no guarantee that giving more money to the current manager will change things and it might just be wasted money. None of us have a crystal ball to know the result of either action. I think the majority of fans feel there needs to be a change. Some will consider that change to be at board level, others at management level and never the twain shall meet. None of us should come on here with a definitive answer and be condescending to the other party. For my side, if there were to be a change I would like it to be at management level. I see no change over the past four seasons, you may as well put a DVD of Nigel's first season in charge on and press repeat every year. Every year we have a purple patch of form, we all get excited and think its finally come good, then we struggle, have injuries, some former starters are loaned out despite those injuries prompting rumours of fall outs, we end up mid table. I don't see a playing ethos within the side. It chops and changes in style too much and there's too much ephasis on hard work and playing it safe, sacrificing creative attacking play in the process. Even when we've played well this season it's been tidy attacking play, nothing really of that creative spark that gets a crowd going. I can understand some fans thinking that its a lack of investments fault, although I think the game is changing for the better its still a sport with an emphasis on spending money and also spending more money that the club makes. We've grown accustomed to it and expect it and even more so when other clubs are spending and we're not. I personally don't feel that the level of investment is so derisory that no other manger around could have us playing better or challenging for a top 10 to play-offs finish. Whether that's the case or not I don't know, especially with the world of football where transfer figures are 'undisclosed' mainly now and we don't know clubs wage bills. But I would like my club to be well run, for the investment to be in youth and not to spend a lot more than we make. I would also like to take the chance in another manager. With every change in anything in life, there is a risk, but for me it's now a risk worth taking. For others I understand that spending more on Nigel is the risk they want to take. The debate will never end.........probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 He's a very average manager with a very average record who's signings are very average. Even with the emergence of a couple of quality youngsters we are still very average. If he left tomorrow we could end up with a Paul Jewell, granted, but there is far more chance of getting someone better IMO (although I'm not sure if this board could spot a good manager TBH, but that's another argument). GSE are in charge however, and Nigel seems to fit their plan, whatever that is. At the moment the only positive at the club is the emergence of the 3 youngsters so far and the promise of more to come. However I'm not sure i trust Clough to handle them well. It's difficult to imagine them wanting to stay with us given our low wage policy and the crap football we set up to play in the majority of games, and I think even if any of them could be persuaded to stay its likely they'll fall out with Clough at some stage and be sent off on loan to Coventry or wherever, I'm not convinced we'll end up getting a lot of money for any of them, but assuming we did, would I trust Clough to spend it well? It seems there is a large percentage of players that Clough is unable or unwilling to work with, and it only takes one of them to put us back to square one again. I loved it when we signed Nigel, it would have been a dream come true if he'd been successful with us, but I realised it wasn't going to happen long ago, since then it's been like we're in limbo, the place is like a morgue on match days, and I wouldn't even consider going to an away game, fair do's to all those who still go away it must be soul destroying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Exactly. Just a quick question Uttox. You are always the voice of reason on here (maximum brownie points?) and you can pretty much always referee any debate by finding that middle ground. Where do you really think we're headed? How long? The wage budget is what it is Nigel does what he does. Neither will change without force. So, do the fans be patient for longer? Force a change of manager? or try to force the board into action? I've always been on Nigel's side despite all my moaning. But the seasons keep boiling down to nothingness. Our seasons have a pattern and despite all the promise we have shown in the last few years its often come undone and left us pretty fed up by February. Obviously why this happens is up for debate (manager or investment?) but you can't really argue that somewhere we're coming up short. Where though? Why does the promise always end with plain old mid-lower table boredom? It's not the Birmingham knee jerk reaction that's causing these threads. It's down to watching everybody pull away and us go on one of our predictable terrible runs. It guts people. Obviously trying to force the board could turn nasty. Getting a new manager could go either way and if we do neither and sit and hope we fluke it (which I imagine is the investors hope) we could be waiting until next year or next decade. On the other hand,utch,they might realise that if they got rid of the bullet proof vest,any future bullets might find their way through.If they were to install a duffer,there'd be no hiding place. We don't know the true plan of GSE and what they have promised the investors (we should never forget that there are two seperate entities here). If GSE have convinced the investors that a return on investment (ROI) is possible by selling a rising star (or two) while building towards a promotion challenge then they may well be happy to put the £3 - £6 million in each year until the big money sales can be made. Its possible that it could be this coming summer, I could see a low to mid table Prem club gambling £3m rising to £5m on Hendrick for instance. The following summer maybe £7m rising to £10m for Hughes. If Mason makes the breakthrough and scores goals then £10m coming in that following summer. Is that the plan? Is that what GSE are working toward? A regular stream of incoming cash from a well run academy, attracting the best talent because they know they'll get a chance? All ifs and buts obviously but unless they come clean with us, all we can do is speculate! It could work btw, Clough could get a couple of million to spend and maybe a slight wage bill increase and a couple of players come in who gel, knit the team together and off we go. But it could just as easily not work, or only partially work and we'll be where we are now...... If a new manager comes in and "the plan" remains as is, then we could well be calling for the new guy's head by the new year, something GSE (as Ramblur points out) will fear as it will be them in the firing line just as much as the new manager. Do we give Clough a chance to see if the plan will work, its taken this long to get players coming through who are genuinely saleable, or do we thank him for his hard work and the foundations he has built which could yet be the making of this club without having to resort to a sugar daddy throwing money round like confetti. What's making it unpalatable is the Leicester's, Cardiff's and Forest's having unlimited funds to spunk on wages and players while we're struggling to make ends meet. Clough's net spend over the 4 years is about £1m - while taking the wage bill down from £18m to £8m. Part of me says we need a fresh face - maybe a new manager willing to play a more open, free flowing game whatever the financial restrictions he's working under and part of me would love to see Clough shopping at a higher level to see what quality he would bring in. If GSE's plan is how I describe it above then I fear we will struggle with or without Clough. With Clough we might just get enough youngsters coming through to finance the plan. A new manager may not wish to gamble on so many kids. A change of manager will clearly please a significant number of fans, might even give the players a new lease of life and improve results short term. It seems a long shot that the club would be more likely to mount a serious promotion challenge without a change of plan from GSE though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddesdenRam Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 These owners need to realise that they have done a quality job at saving this club in terms of finance and doing well to keep us in the division for the first few years. They have also implemented a quality youth recruitment system. However if they are to get out of this division they must add a bit of quality and experience to find the perfect balance with the great youth we have. Its not an overhaul of the squad that is needed or a new manager just a bit more on the field quality in key positions. A striker and centre back pretty much. This division is so tight as it is, a little boost will be just what we need. Then if the on the field quality is good enough and they aren't performing, then you can look to the off field staff. As for the moment any manager that came in would be limited and a new manager would cause more short term problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I did notice some time ago (and you know how I always store away these kind of things ) that someone connected with the club bemoaned the fact that we weren't making the same fortune out of our Academy that another club (think it was Cardiff at the time) had pulled in.What struck me about the comment was the fact that there was no mention of Academy graduates strengthening the team.It was all about money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddesdenRam Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 It's like people saying forests under 18 team got further than us this season in the youth cup. We played Manchester city and Chelsea but more importantly are any if their players getting in and around the first team not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyJumper Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Yeah if the majority want him gone they should listen. Angry fans can make life difficult. But the majority will never want him gone. Lots of fence sitters. Lots of support for him. Truth is that he's here to do just what he's doing. Keep a cheap team looking for a fluke season while his surname stops impatient fans from becoming a bloody thirsty mob. The board have everything just how they want. I'm sure they 100% believe our fluke promotion payday will come. It's easy for us to say 'gamble your cash', 'sack Clough'...... The tide might be rough, but the boat ain't rocking. I'd be very surprised that any of our owners ever got to their current personal financial positions by waiting for a fluke anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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