Falling Attendances

[ramblur]

i think we would be lucky if they have invested 6m in players over the years, and i am getting sick and tired of it, and if they really want to get promation they need to spend some money for godsake, and take a risk because sometimes that is what needed, to take this club fowards.

Even talking net investment,I'm afraid you're well out,B4. I wouldn't lie to you,mate-I've been accused of mounting some kind of vendetta against them in the past!

[G STAR RAM]

i think we would be lucky if they have invested 6m in players over the years, and i am getting sick and tired of it, and if they really want to get promation they need to spend some money for godsake, and take a risk because sometimes that is what needed, to take this club fowards.

Well if this is what you are basing your 'yanks out' campaign on I suggest you go away and do a bit of research before making yourself look silly.

[Guest]

No, the only club I care about is Derby, I couldn't care less about anyone else.

Unlike most I don't crave a quick return to the Premier League to watch us be humiliated week in week out in a league where it would take years for us to be able to compete for anything other than 16th place.

As opposed to taking us 4 years to compete for 12th in a league below, and not showing any signs of improving on that.

You have a right to be happy with living the dream in this league by competing for mid table, however some people want to see change. Some of us aren’t happy that the latest news is what part of the players body is sponsored next, or the league season effectively being over 3 months before it finishes.

Maybe its some new owners that attend more than a handful of games, or ones that will invest millions and walk away in 5 years, or even ones that turn us into a Swansea, stoke, or Norwich as opposed to a Portsmouth, but imo this would is better than languishing within the second tier of English football where we are now regarded by some as punching above our weight given our financial constraints for the next 5 years.

I don’t even know who all our investors are, I’m sure you know to the penny how much each one has invested and how much they are owed, given that you have told B4 to research it, all I know is that I want to see Derby competing at the highest level. I once played in a two bit pub team, that once when up a league and got hammered every week, the next season they didn’t say lets not get promoted in case we get humiliated, if they did we may have as well packed up there and then if you dont think you can compete at the highest level.

[G STAR RAM]

As opposed to taking us 4 years to compete for 12th in a league below, and not showing any signs of improving on that.

You have a right to be happy with living the dream in this league by competing for mid table, however some people want to see change. Some of us aren’t happy that the latest news is what part of the players body is sponsored next, or the league season effectively being over 3 months before it finishes.

Maybe its some new owners that attend more than a handful of games, or ones that will invest millions and walk away in 5 years, or even ones that turn us into a Swansea, stoke, or Norwich as opposed to a Portsmouth, but imo this would is better than languishing within the second tier of English football where we are now regarded by some as punching above our weight given our financial constraints for the next 5 years.

I don’t even know who all our investors are, I’m sure you know to the penny how much each one has invested and how much they are owed, given that you have told B4 to research it, all I know is that I want to see Derby competing at the highest level. I once played in a two bit pub team, that once when up a league and got hammered every week, the next season they didn’t say lets not get promoted in case we get humiliated, if they did we may have as well packed up there and then if you dont think you can compete at the highest level.

1. If you don't see any signs of improvement I suggest a trip to SpecSavers

2. If you don't know who all of our investors are how can you comment on them only attending a handful of games?

3. I told B4 to research his comment about us not even spending £6 million on players during NC reign, please get your facts

right if you are going to take a pop.

4. I too would love to see Derby COMPETING at the highest level but without mega rich owners who will throw lots of money at us

without expecting it back it is very unlikely to happen, hence why it does not bother me being in a league where we will more

than we lose and play some decent football along the way.

[Stive Pesley]

As far as the GSE management charge goes (£60k last year,not yet paid-or should I say as at 30 June),I think fans should just treat this as the equivalent of director's emolument for AA,who doesn't appear to take one within DCFC.£60k seems reasonable to me for the work he obviously puts in behind the scenes.

The accounts actually said that £60k management charges to GSE were "incurred" in 2012 (the same as the previous year) and that £75k were still outstanding (15k outstanding from 2011) - so that suggests that the £60k for 2012 has not been paid, along with £15k from the previous year - so AA is racking up charges and not taking them for some reason.

Do you think that the emollument for the one director of £274k is Glick's salary? I can't see it would be anyone else, but will be interesting to see if SR ends up on more or less (or perhaps he even ends up as a "normal" employee - Glick was a director as well as Chief Exec)

[Guest]

1. If you don't see any signs of improvement I suggest a trip to SpecSavers

2. If you don't know who all of our investors are how can you comment on them only attending a handful of games?

3. I told B4 to research his comment about us not even spending £6 million on players during NC reign, please get your facts

right if you are going to take a pop.

4. I too would love to see Derby COMPETING at the highest level but without mega rich owners who will throw lots of money at us

without expecting it back it is very unlikely to happen, hence why it does not bother me being in a league where we will more

than we lose and play some decent football along the way.

1. Why do I need specsavers, are you telling me we arent 13th in the league, how is that better than 12th, even by my poor maths that is one place lower ?

2. Do you know who all our investors are, I know some, and they dont come to many games, but please enlighten me then and tell me Im wrong, someone earlier in the thread mentioned the fans who only turn up for the big games, the difference being ?

3. B4 got it wrong, but so can anyone, 1.7m for shackell ? The point being is that you have read his posts, most of his facts are "slightly" out, I was just pointing out rather than having a dig at him you could enlighten him, and me for that matter how much they have spent during NC time as you appear to have this to hand.

4. Are our investors not mega rich, do they not want the money back ? So all the money they have been put in so far is not repayable in any form ? Is our playing record not won 10 drawn 8 lost 10, scored 42 and conceded 41, how is that winning more than we lose, or do i need them specs again ?

[Martyn]

1. Why do I need specsavers, are you telling me we arent 13th in the league, how is that better than 12th, even by my poor maths that is one place lower ?

Not really wanting you bust the love-in between you two, but you said you saw no signs of improvement. Surely if you only look at the league table for that and not the actual performances on the pitch, why ever bother watching a football match (if you do)?

Can't you just look at the table every Saturday night and enjoy reading the results?

[Guest]

Not really wanting you bust the love-in between you two, but you said you saw no signs of improvement. Surely if you only look at the league table for that and not the actual performances on the pitch, why ever bother watching a football match (if you do)?

Can't you just look at the table every Saturday night and enjoy reading the results?

Don't mind you busting the love in.

I've not mentioned the performances, which have improved at home, but not away, if you read my comments I stated that we don't look like improving on our league pos, in response to us not been able to compete for anything other than 16th in the PL.

[RamNut]

Why do accountants invent terms like emolument, disbursement, equity, amortisation etc etc

Why don't they use words we can understand like mis-selling, misleading, thieving etc.

[G STAR RAM]

1. Why do I need specsavers, are you telling me we arent 13th in the league, how is that better than 12th, even by my poor maths that is one place lower ?

Yes we are currently one place lower, we have also been higher this year but 'show no sign of improving on 12th?

2. Do you know who all our investors are, I know some, and they dont come to many games, but please enlighten me then and tell me Im wrong, someone earlier in the thread mentioned the fans who only turn up for the big games, the difference being ?

No I have no idea who all of our investors are, hence why I don't comment on how many games they attend. Which investors do you know and how do you know they don't come to many games?

3. B4 got it wrong, but so can anyone, 1.7m for shackell ? The point being is that you have read his posts, most of his facts are "slightly" out, I was just pointing out rather than having a dig at him you could enlighten him, and me for that matter how much they have spent during NC time as you appear to have this to hand.

I'll admit when I am wrong and not keep on banging the same tedious drum despite there being evidence to the contrary of what I am saying. I came out and said I think my info re Shackell MAY be wrong, can you please confirm the fee we got for him? Why should I waste my time enlightening him? It has been pointed out to him on several occasions how much the owners have put in to our club. He could spend 10 minutes looking at the accounts since they have been here and work out that we have spent more than £6million. He could probably even do a quick calculation in his head just using our current squad and realise his comment is ridiculous, so no I won't waste any more of my time trying to explain simple mathematics to him.

4. Are our investors not mega rich, do they not want the money back ? So all the money they have been put in so far is not repayable in any form ? Is our playing record not won 10 drawn 8 lost 10, scored 42 and conceded 41, how is that winning more than we lose, or do i need them specs again ?

I have no idea whether our mega investors are mega rich or not please enlighten. Wasn't Michael Jackson mega rich and got declared bankrupt? I pointed out on another thread that just because someone is described as rich it does not mean they have an endless pot of cash to throw at things. If I had £100million of property and an overdraft of £50million would you still call me rich?

Yes ok we have won exactly the same as we have lost. My point was it is a damn sight better than being in the Premier League winning one match all season.

[uttoxram75]

Why do accountants invent terms like emolument, disbursement, equity, amortisation etc etc

Why don't they use words we can understand like mis-selling, misleading, thieving etc.

You've sorta answered ya own question there............

[Silver]

Let’s take this thread back to looking at how far attendances are actually down. There appears to be a perceived wisdom that the “yanks lack of investment” has had a significant detrimental impact on our attendances. However, the facts perhaps say differently.

Our average attendances since 2001/2 when we were relegated from the Premier are:

2001/2 – Prem 19/20 - 29,816

2002/3 – Champ 18/24 - 25,469

2003/4 – Champ 20/24 - 22,330

2004/5 – Champ 4/24 - 24,044

2005/6 – Champ 20/24 - 24,166

2006/7 – Champ 3/24 (promoted) - 25,944

2007/8 – Prem 20/20 - 32,432

2008/9 – Champ 18/24 – 29,440

2009/10 – Champ 14/24- 29,230

2010/11 – Champ 19/24 - 26,022

2011/12 – Champ 12/24- 26,281

2012/13 – Champ 13/24 – 23,284

I do not think many people would argue against that we get higher attendances in the Prem then the Championship and that the attendances tail off i.e. the season after relegation tends to be higher than the “norm” in the lower league. This is the case for pretty much all clubs.

So, if we ignore seasons spent in the Premier and the first season in the Championship after relegation we should get a good indication of what our average Championship attendance is.

Using the above figures which include a range of performances in the Championship (one promotion and several flirtations with relegation) our average Championship attendance is 25,431, we are currently averaging 23,284 meaning we are tracking 2,147 behind this. Given that the general downturn in attendances across the country will account for some of this we have probably not “lost” as many supporters as most believe due to the “lack of investment”. Maybe around 1,000?

Just as an aside, can people stop referring to us as the twelfth best supported team in the country; this was true in 2008/9 with our Premier tail and relative to other clubs attendances that season, but certainly not true on any kind of ongoing basis.

[Stive Pesley]

What is clear from the Fan Forum and the pre-amble on the Accounts is that the club see falling attendances as a big threat and Sam Rush is under massive pressure to address it.

However, I'd say your figure of "around 1000" fans lost due to lack of investment is probably on the high side. Certainly in terms of that being the sole reason.

A perfect illustration of this is down the M1 in Leicester where they have invested heavily and the team are riding high in 2^nd place, they've pushed on in the transfer window and spent big on a striker who is bagging them goals for fun, yet their attandance are also down by much the same margin as ours.

I think there are a lot of factors driving attendances down and it's easy for us to paint the strategy of the owners as being a big factor, because I really don't think it is.

Expect to see an end to the Digonex nonsense(or at least a big change), and some other drastic measures around price very soon. Mark my words

[Guest]

Yes we are currently one place lower, we have also been higher this year but 'show no sign of improving on 12th?

You told me I needed spec savers, yes we have been higher, we have also been lower, but at present it looks like we will finish somewhere between 14^th and 10^th.

No I have no idea who all of our investors are, hence why I don't comment on how many games they attend. Which investors do you know and how do you know they don't come to many games?

I dont know, I would take an educated guess that they don’t given there is normally a press release when they do, I just put it would be nice to have owners that come to games.

I'll admit when I am wrong and not keep on banging the same tedious drum despite there being evidence to the contrary of what I am saying. I came out and said I think my info re Shackell MAY be wrong, can you please confirm the fee we got for him? Why should I waste my time enlightening him? It has been pointed out to him on several occasions how much the owners have put in to our club. He could spend 10 minutes looking at the accounts since they have been here and work out that we have spent more than £6million. He could probably even do a quick calculation in his head just using our current squad and realise his comment is ridiculous, so no I won't waste any more of my time trying to explain simple mathematics to him.

I dont know how much we got for him, taking your phrase from above “hence why I dont comment” on it. He was also referring to transfer fees in recent years, not how much has been put into the club, doing the quick calculation in my head, Brayford 500k, Sammon 1m, Coutts 150k, Theo 350k, Keough 1m, Barker 1m, Keepers 500k, Bryson 500k, Ward 300k, which is nearly 6m, sure I missed a few and got the figures wrong and of course being argumentative for the sake, but for you it may be easy, for others maybe not. Im sure that we have spent way over the 6m in recent years in transfer fees.

I have no idea whether our mega investors are mega rich or not please enlighten. Wasn't Michael Jackson mega rich and got declared bankrupt? I pointed out on another thread that just because someone is described as rich it does not mean they have an endless pot of cash to throw at things. If I had £100million of property and an overdraft of £50million would you still call me rich?

Yes ok we have won exactly the same as we have lost. My point was it is a damn sight better than being in the Premier League winning one match all season.

Well Mallet for Example bought a $13.5 million plot of land a few years back, which included a 9 hole golf course, Ricketts has said he and his family will fund Wrigley renovations for $300m if needed, so I would call these owners rich, and able to get cash when needed, wouldnt you ?

[Silver]

GreenRam you are probably right about the c1000 being high, if we assume the Prem tail is two, rather than one, years the difference between our historic and current average is more like 1,500 which can probably be pretty much all accounted for by the country-wide downturn in attendances. I gave the second year of the tail the benefit of the doubt, however, if you look at 2009/10 it certainly seems to be the case of a two year tail or that the board should actually be given credit for holding attendances up rather than driving them down!

[G STAR RAM]

You told me I needed spec savers, yes we have been higher, we have also been lower, but at present it looks like we will finish somewhere between 14^th and 10^th.

So the fact that we could finish 10th does show that there is potential sign of improvement, that one was easy to clear up.

I dont know, I would take an educated guess that they don’t given there is normally a press release when they do, I just put it would be nice to have owners that come to games.

Incorrect, in your previous post you claimed to 'know some' of our investors and said they don't come to many games, so please give us the examples that you are talking of. Given that some of our investors remain anonymous I would find it hard to comment on whether they attend games or not. However, I will point out, as I stated in another thread, that I have heard that one reason why our admin expenses are quite high is due to the expenses claimed by Americans travelling to Derby on a very regular basis. Admitedly I have nothing to back this up and I am sure you will throw back at me what I previously said about the Shackell fee.

I dont know how much we got for him, taking your phrase from above “hence why I dont comment” on it. He was also referring to transfer fees in recent years, not how much has been put into the club, doing the quick calculation in my head, Brayford 500k, Sammon 1m, Coutts 150k, Theo 350k, Keough 1m, Barker 1m, Keepers 500k, Bryson 500k, Ward 300k, which is nearly 6m, sure I missed a few and got the figures wrong and of course being argumentative for the sake, but for you it may be easy, for others maybe not. Im sure that we have spent way over the 6m in recent years in transfer fees.

Incorrect again I'm afraid 'i think we would be lucky if they have invested 6m in players over the years' is what B4 said and as I responded the current squad alone comes in above that figure.

Well Mallet for Example bought a $13.5 million plot of land a few years back, which included a 9 hole golf course, Ricketts has said he and his family will fund Wrigley renovations for $300m if needed, so I would call these owners rich, and able to get cash when needed, wouldnt you ?

Correct, a point I can agree with you on at last 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

[Guest]

So the fact that we could finish 10th does show that there is potential sign of improvement, that one was easy to clear up.

We could also finish top 5 or in the bottom 5, but at present we are 13th, which would be no improvement, 10th would probably be a great achivement for some though, so yes there is a potential sign of improvement, as there is a potential we could actually be in decline at the end of the season, so I stand by what I stand.

Incorrect, in your previous post you claimed to 'know some' of our investors and said they don't come to many games, so please give us the examples that you are talking of. Given that some of our investors remain anonymous I would find it hard to comment on whether they attend games or not. However, I will point out, as I stated in another thread, that I have heard that one reason why our admin expenses are quite high is due to the expenses claimed by Americans travelling to Derby on a very regular basis. Admitedly I have nothing to back this up and I am sure you will throw back at me what I previously said about the Shackell fee.

Mallett was over from the States with a number of the club's other investors.

But matchdays for Mallett usually start at 7am at his home in the San Francisco Bay area where he lives with his wife, Claire, and their two daughters, Victoria, 15, and 12-year-old Amber.

"We get an internet feed from the BBC and so I get up and sit at the computer in my pyjamas cheering on the team," he said.

"Some days I yell at my computer, other days I want to hug it. I want to do more hugging of my computer!

"Both my daughters play football and both have been over to Derby for a couple of the games.

"And, of course, we all have our Derby gear."

Incorrect again I'm afraid 'i think we would be lucky if they have invested 6m in players over the years' is what B4 said and as I responded the current squad alone comes in above that figure.

I never said he wasnt wrong, far from it, most of B4's post are incorrect, but we can have different views on what direction we want the club to take, even based upon ill informed (or made up) facts.

Correct, a point I can agree with you on at last 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

It had to happen sooner or later 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Anyhow I think we will have to agree to disagree rather than continue off topic, and probably bore everybody else 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[curb]

It's probably down to your personal expectations of where the club should be.

Some look at the improvement in performances and the potential of finishing around 10th as enough to show we are on the right track.

For me, if you look at the squad and say have we improved enough that our players look capable of mounting a sustained promotion attempt, or they would be good enough to hold their own in the Prem, then no, we are still a million miles away.

After 4/5 years and given the amount of money the club has had available then for me the answer is no, it's not good enough (in that I include the management performance of GSE as well as NC, as they are his employers after all).

Looking forward and trying to second guess the future:

Would we be able to keep hold of the players coming through long enough to be able to mount a challenge? Again the answer to that for me is no.

If we cash in on the players coming through would we be able to manage the potential money we get for them well enough to mount a challenge? Based on the performance of the previous 5 years again I would say no.

[ramblur]

The accounts actually said that £60k management charges to GSE were "incurred" in 2012 (the same as the previous year) and that £75k were still outstanding (15k outstanding from 2011) - so that suggests that the £60k for 2012 has not been paid, along with £15k from the previous year - so AA is racking up charges and not taking them for some reason.

Do you think that the emollument for the one director of £274k is Glick's salary? I can't see it would be anyone else, but will be interesting to see if SR ends up on more or less (or perhaps he even ends up as a "normal" employee - Glick was a director as well as Chief Exec)

I suspect the management fee is taken (paid) as and when cash flow allows (which may also apply to accrued interest in the future for all we know).I don't see the paid director as being any other than Glick;SR was quickly appointed a director earlier this month,so yes we should be able to compare.Moving onto a couple of points not related to your reply:-

B4 said "over the years",which I took to mean including pre Clough.I didn't even bother looking at figures over that one.If he had meant net spend in Clough's era,then it wouldn't be something to be laughed at,particularly if he meant fees,as opposed to fees +agents etc.

Someone (probably AA) said recently that a board member always attended matches.Quite clever,because a locally based CEO is also a board member.I'd agree with another poster (Leeds?) who said that visits by investor groups tend to be well publicised and seem to relate to bigger games.I suspect they arrange their own 'board' (as opposed to DCFC board) meetings to coincide wherever possible.There also appear to be regular conference calls.

[B4ev6is]

hey you got sale of shackall wrong and you tell me that i need to my reasearch shackall went for 1.1m which is a total joke, everyone knew he was worth at least 3 to 4m. so don't tell me i am not brain washed by want the yanks says.