Bob The Badger

Me saying I'm knowledgable on a topic (of which there are very few but US politics is in the top 2 or 3) does not imply other people are stupid, that's your own projection or insecurities. 
I'm not stupid, but you wouldn't have found me debating UK politics other than generalities whilst I lived in the US. I couldn't have even named more than a couple of Cabinet members because it wasn't covered in the US and I wasn't that bothered because it didn't impact me.
That statement is clearly wrong, but you know very well we are talking about the lead up to the election so if you take out was then it's entirely true.
And when it comes to goal post moving:
You said that 400k died under Trumps watch and 250k under Biden when it was just shy of 500k and 150k respectively.
That Biden didn't call for the vaccine in the election cycle because he wanted to win, when there wasn't even a vaccine to call for, but he did call for mask wearing a LOT. And as soon as the vaccine was rolled out he supported it when he wasn't the President.
And you evidently believing (because it's they that are suffering) that Trump supporters sucked up what Biden was saying (even though he didn't actually say it) based on a carefully edited video with zero context that was produced after the fact by Republicans.
It would have been largely Democrats dying now and not Republicans if Trump haters did suck up what Biden said, or rather didn't.
Also, you suggested mask-wearing didn't work even though almost every member of the Oval Office staff caught Covid and almost no senior Democrats did.
That stuff isn't hard to talk down.

Congartulations - you have taken step 1 on the path to learning not to waste time arguing with @G STAR RAM ?

Not sure what your source is (please post a link) but irrespective, this entire conversation is about the run up to the election and Trump did not tell his supporters to get vaccinated before then, it was 3 or 4 months after when the real damage had been done.
Even as late as April his aides were saying according to Politico:
Former President Donald Trump’s unwillingness to pitch his voters on getting the jab has become the source of frustration for former aides, who lament the political benefits that would have come had he done so. It has also worried health officials from his own administration, who told POLITICO about a months long effort to get him to publicly take the lead; and medical experts, who say a full-throated endorsement could sway vaccine skeptics on the right and get the country closer to herd immunity.
The nub of this is, was Trump responsible for tens of thousand of deaths because he refused to wear a mask or push his supporters to get the vaccine whilst in power?
And the answer is an unequivocal yes of course he was.
And has Biden tried (and not succeeded in fairness) to reverse that?
Again the answer is yes, I've no clue what else, short of mandating vaccinations (which would never happen in the US) he could do.
Especially as Governors who wield the real power in States like DeSantis and Greg Abbott as well as Senators like Ron Johnson and the Whip, Steve Scalise are still pushing back. And they are doing so because they're all rabid Trump supporters.
A bit like the succession of Conservative radio hosts who are now dropping like flies after telling their Trump loving listeners that they didn't need the vaccine. You certainly don't to die and ignominious death that's for sure.
There's a cognitive bias called primacy effect in which people better remember and give more weight to initial information they acquire. Trump spent months telling his supporters that it was all a hoax, and then that it would go away, and then with his bizarre exit from hospital and suppression of how sick he really was (according to insiders and medical experts) tacitly suggesting that you'll be ok.
Saying on Fox News, an organisation that has haemorrhaged viewers to far right stations like OAN and Newsmax because they admitted Biden won months after he left power, is welcome, but too little and too late.  
 

I'm not sure how closely you follow US politics - although it would appear not that closely - but I have followed it since the mid-80s and extremely closely for 15 years I lived there up until the week before Biden won.
Biden was calling for masks months before the election. He was never seen in public without one during the election cycle.
The doubt over how Trump would manipulate the vaccine was based on Trump trying to manipulate the vaccine roll out by leaning on drug companies.
These are objective facts not my opinion.
It's also an objective fact that the leaders of the GOP, notably Kevin McCarthy the leader in the House and Mitch McConnell the leader in the Senate didn't come out in favour of mask wearing until after Trump's super spreader event in McConnnell's case and not at all in McCarthy's.
Trump acolyte and Florida Governor, Ron DeSantis is in the middle of a legal battle to stop local education authorities for issuing mask mandates.
And another fact is Trump has never told people to get vaccinated and millions of his supporters haven't done so directly because of that. 
I'm disappointed in Biden's tenure to date, but the one thing he has been consistant with is urging people to do whatever they can (wear masks, wash hands, stay home and get vaccinated).
He didn't urge people to get vaccinated before the election because there wasn't one.
However, he was telling people to get it before he was inaugurated and thus risked helping Trump's legacy.
I don't know when those interviews were given (I suspect around early summer), but I do know they were carefully edited to make it look like they were doubting the vaccine as opposed to Trump's handling of it.
It's ludicrous to suggest that Biden is in any way responsible for the deaths, just as it's ludicrous to suggest Trump is responsible for all of them.
Biden has tried to get people to mask up and get vaccinated and a lot of people are doing the opposite 100% because of Trump.
Nobody is not having the vaccine because of an  interview Biden or Harris gave at least a year ago in which they said they didn't trust Trump because Democrats agree and Republicans don't care.
 

Not sure what your source is (please post a link) but irrespective, this entire conversation is about the run up to the election and Trump did not tell his supporters to get vaccinated before then, it was 3 or 4 months after when the real damage had been done.
Even as late as April his aides were saying according to Politico:
Former President Donald Trump’s unwillingness to pitch his voters on getting the jab has become the source of frustration for former aides, who lament the political benefits that would have come had he done so. It has also worried health officials from his own administration, who told POLITICO about a months long effort to get him to publicly take the lead; and medical experts, who say a full-throated endorsement could sway vaccine skeptics on the right and get the country closer to herd immunity.
The nub of this is, was Trump responsible for tens of thousand of deaths because he refused to wear a mask or push his supporters to get the vaccine whilst in power?
And the answer is an unequivocal yes of course he was.
And has Biden tried (and not succeeded in fairness) to reverse that?
Again the answer is yes, I've no clue what else, short of mandating vaccinations (which would never happen in the US) he could do.
Especially as Governors who wield the real power in States like DeSantis and Greg Abbott as well as Senators like Ron Johnson and the Whip, Steve Scalise are still pushing back. And they are doing so because they're all rabid Trump supporters.
A bit like the succession of Conservative radio hosts who are now dropping like flies after telling their Trump loving listeners that they didn't need the vaccine. You certainly don't to die and ignominious death that's for sure.
There's a cognitive bias called primacy effect in which people better remember and give more weight to initial information they acquire. Trump spent months telling his supporters that it was all a hoax, and then that it would go away, and then with his bizarre exit from hospital and suppression of how sick he really was (according to insiders and medical experts) tacitly suggesting that you'll be ok.
Saying on Fox News, an organisation that has haemorrhaged viewers to far right stations like OAN and Newsmax because they admitted Biden won months after he left power, is welcome, but too little and too late.  
 

Not sure what your source is (please post a link) but irrespective, this entire conversation is about the run up to the election and Trump did not tell his supporters to get vaccinated before then, it was 3 or 4 months after when the real damage had been done.
Even as late as April his aides were saying according to Politico:
Former President Donald Trump’s unwillingness to pitch his voters on getting the jab has become the source of frustration for former aides, who lament the political benefits that would have come had he done so. It has also worried health officials from his own administration, who told POLITICO about a months long effort to get him to publicly take the lead; and medical experts, who say a full-throated endorsement could sway vaccine skeptics on the right and get the country closer to herd immunity.
The nub of this is, was Trump responsible for tens of thousand of deaths because he refused to wear a mask or push his supporters to get the vaccine whilst in power?
And the answer is an unequivocal yes of course he was.
And has Biden tried (and not succeeded in fairness) to reverse that?
Again the answer is yes, I've no clue what else, short of mandating vaccinations (which would never happen in the US) he could do.
Especially as Governors who wield the real power in States like DeSantis and Greg Abbott as well as Senators like Ron Johnson and the Whip, Steve Scalise are still pushing back. And they are doing so because they're all rabid Trump supporters.
A bit like the succession of Conservative radio hosts who are now dropping like flies after telling their Trump loving listeners that they didn't need the vaccine. You certainly don't to die and ignominious death that's for sure.
There's a cognitive bias called primacy effect in which people better remember and give more weight to initial information they acquire. Trump spent months telling his supporters that it was all a hoax, and then that it would go away, and then with his bizarre exit from hospital and suppression of how sick he really was (according to insiders and medical experts) tacitly suggesting that you'll be ok.
Saying on Fox News, an organisation that has haemorrhaged viewers to far right stations like OAN and Newsmax because they admitted Biden won months after he left power, is welcome, but too little and too late.  
 

I'll tell you why. 
Because Biden was on TV every day and I saw him and senior members of the DNC interviewed a great many times. 
He (nor they) never talked the vaccine down and if you think he or Democrats in general did it's because you didn't follow it closely. 
I don't have all the facts. Just a lot more than you do on this topic. 

Jeez.
Biden never talked the vaccine down.
NEVER.
And if he did talk the vaccine down, which he didn't, and people listened to him, which they didn't because he didn't say it, then you'd have Democrats not getting vaccinated, not the Republican Trump supporters who currently make up the overwhelming majority. 
In 25 years of using message board I'm not sure that I have ever come across anybody so attached to a singular viewpoint and so utterly incapable of accepting facts.
Much of this thread is subjective and just people's opinions, but this isn't.
You're arguing on a topic that you clearly know very little about and I'm confused as to why.
Even though I loosely followed UK politics I rarely got involved in debates on here because I knew I didn't know enough.
I'm not sure you realise when you're out of your depth.
Or you're just a brilliant wind-up merchant. 
One or the other.

Jeez.
Biden never talked the vaccine down.
NEVER.
And if he did talk the vaccine down, which he didn't, and people listened to him, which they didn't because he didn't say it, then you'd have Democrats not getting vaccinated, not the Republican Trump supporters who currently make up the overwhelming majority. 
In 25 years of using message board I'm not sure that I have ever come across anybody so attached to a singular viewpoint and so utterly incapable of accepting facts.
Much of this thread is subjective and just people's opinions, but this isn't.
You're arguing on a topic that you clearly know very little about and I'm confused as to why.
Even though I loosely followed UK politics I rarely got involved in debates on here because I knew I didn't know enough.
I'm not sure you realise when you're out of your depth.
Or you're just a brilliant wind-up merchant. 
One or the other.

I'll tell you why. 
Because Biden was on TV every day and I saw him and senior members of the DNC interviewed a great many times. 
He (nor they) never talked the vaccine down and if you think he or Democrats in general did it's because you didn't follow it closely. 
I don't have all the facts. Just a lot more than you do on this topic. 

Jeez.
Biden never talked the vaccine down.
NEVER.
And if he did talk the vaccine down, which he didn't, and people listened to him, which they didn't because he didn't say it, then you'd have Democrats not getting vaccinated, not the Republican Trump supporters who currently make up the overwhelming majority. 
In 25 years of using message board I'm not sure that I have ever come across anybody so attached to a singular viewpoint and so utterly incapable of accepting facts.
Much of this thread is subjective and just people's opinions, but this isn't.
You're arguing on a topic that you clearly know very little about and I'm confused as to why.
Even though I loosely followed UK politics I rarely got involved in debates on here because I knew I didn't know enough.
I'm not sure you realise when you're out of your depth.
Or you're just a brilliant wind-up merchant. 
One or the other.

Thanks for the heads up.

I know @David has mentioned this briefly in passing, but the donate button has been restored to the bottom of the homepage.
It's a great opportunity to directly show your appreciation for the work he and the moderation team do, by contributing to the formidable running costs of the forum.
It's not cheap employing a team of cyber geeks to clean up after @Boycie has made his latest contribution to forum management, after all!
I can only guess modesty has stopped him making more of this newly restored option, so I'll do it for him.
It's a good way to show your appreciation beyond kind words, and help keep this place amongst the top few Derby forums.
 
 

I'm not sure how closely you follow US politics - although it would appear not that closely - but I have followed it since the mid-80s and extremely closely for 15 years I lived there up until the week before Biden won.
Biden was calling for masks months before the election. He was never seen in public without one during the election cycle.
The doubt over how Trump would manipulate the vaccine was based on Trump trying to manipulate the vaccine roll out by leaning on drug companies.
These are objective facts not my opinion.
It's also an objective fact that the leaders of the GOP, notably Kevin McCarthy the leader in the House and Mitch McConnell the leader in the Senate didn't come out in favour of mask wearing until after Trump's super spreader event in McConnnell's case and not at all in McCarthy's.
Trump acolyte and Florida Governor, Ron DeSantis is in the middle of a legal battle to stop local education authorities for issuing mask mandates.
And another fact is Trump has never told people to get vaccinated and millions of his supporters haven't done so directly because of that. 
I'm disappointed in Biden's tenure to date, but the one thing he has been consistant with is urging people to do whatever they can (wear masks, wash hands, stay home and get vaccinated).
He didn't urge people to get vaccinated before the election because there wasn't one.
However, he was telling people to get it before he was inaugurated and thus risked helping Trump's legacy.
I don't know when those interviews were given (I suspect around early summer), but I do know they were carefully edited to make it look like they were doubting the vaccine as opposed to Trump's handling of it.
It's ludicrous to suggest that Biden is in any way responsible for the deaths, just as it's ludicrous to suggest Trump is responsible for all of them.
Biden has tried to get people to mask up and get vaccinated and a lot of people are doing the opposite 100% because of Trump.
Nobody is not having the vaccine because of an  interview Biden or Harris gave at least a year ago in which they said they didn't trust Trump because Democrats agree and Republicans don't care.
 

I know this is off topic and into the forbidden land, but I still find it hard to square such grand statements about caring so much for our kids' futures - with stuff like you know...voting Tory , voting to leave the EU, shrugging shoulders at climate change etc etc

Good point, I'm not at all sure why he didn't trust him.
I suppose it could have been because he suggested hydroxychloroquine was a cure when it wasn't.
Or maybe it was him telling people around him not to wear masks and then they all caught Covid as did a lot of non-mask wearing Republicans and very few mask wearing Democrats. Strange coincidence that.
It could have even been that Trump thought injecting bleach into people was worth the scientists  investigating.
Clearly they are all flimsy reasons for not trusting the POTUS to do something unscrupulous just before an election, so who knows what the real reason was my well informed friend? Who really knows?

Good point, I'm not at all sure why he didn't trust him.
I suppose it could have been because he suggested hydroxychloroquine was a cure when it wasn't.
Or maybe it was him telling people around him not to wear masks and then they all caught Covid as did a lot of non-mask wearing Republicans and very few mask wearing Democrats. Strange coincidence that.
It could have even been that Trump thought injecting bleach into people was worth the scientists  investigating.
Clearly they are all flimsy reasons for not trusting the POTUS to do something unscrupulous just before an election, so who knows what the real reason was my well informed friend? Who really knows?

Which drugs were causing kids to take guns into school?
It's a lot harder than it was 15 or 20 years ago, but it most definitely is easier to get a doctor to prescribe you drugs in the US, but I never heard about what you're referring to so I'm curious as to what drug or drugs caused this change in kids?

The US passed 500k about 3 weeks after Biden cam to power.
Biden has gone on TV again and again asking people to get vaccinated, Trump never did.
Biden as vaccinated on TV, Trump never even acknowledged he'd had it.
Biden always wore a mask in public and mandated them in Public buildings, Trump did neither.
So no, he isn't facing as much criticism for that because he inherited a problem that Trump helped exacerbate. 
Sometimes I read things like you posted and wonder if I'm in a parallel universe.

Good point, I'm not at all sure why he didn't trust him.
I suppose it could have been because he suggested hydroxychloroquine was a cure when it wasn't.
Or maybe it was him telling people around him not to wear masks and then they all caught Covid as did a lot of non-mask wearing Republicans and very few mask wearing Democrats. Strange coincidence that.
It could have even been that Trump thought injecting bleach into people was worth the scientists  investigating.
Clearly they are all flimsy reasons for not trusting the POTUS to do something unscrupulous just before an election, so who knows what the real reason was my well informed friend? Who really knows?

Which drugs were causing kids to take guns into school?
It's a lot harder than it was 15 or 20 years ago, but it most definitely is easier to get a doctor to prescribe you drugs in the US, but I never heard about what you're referring to so I'm curious as to what drug or drugs caused this change in kids?

All good thanks. No symptoms for any of us. 

So heavily edited and taken out of context it's utterly meaningless. Propaganda. 

So heavily edited and taken out of context it's utterly meaningless. Propaganda. 

The reality of the vaccine is that as soon as it was approved for emergency use there was no hesitancy by the Democrats. At least none of the leaders as per the RNC clip would suggest.
But there was from the GOP, especially the Trump camp, the majority of whom contracted it.