duncanjwitham

"It's very difficult. You want to keep them as fit and healthy as they can be. And to do that they have to train. But you've always got the risk that if you push them too far then they will break. I don't care what anybody tells you but nobody knows everything. There's nobody who knows what distances they should hit every week and what the high speed should be either."
So maybe I'm reading too much into that, but people are telling Warne that he's over-exerting the players in training, but he's doing it any way, and now we're picking up loads of injuries and he's saying basically nobody could have predicted it would have happened?

Warne is the one that immediately started talking about training intensity, he's obviously getting pressure from somewhere about it.  Clearly injuries are going to happen, but surely it's the managers job to try and minimise that risk?  And the fact that the 2 players with strains are the 2 players he's just accused of feigning injuries must raise some alarm bells...

"It's very difficult. You want to keep them as fit and healthy as they can be. And to do that they have to train. But you've always got the risk that if you push them too far then they will break. I don't care what anybody tells you but nobody knows everything. There's nobody who knows what distances they should hit every week and what the high speed should be either."
So maybe I'm reading too much into that, but people are telling Warne that he's over-exerting the players in training, but he's doing it any way, and now we're picking up loads of injuries and he's saying basically nobody could have predicted it would have happened?

The way I see it, there are 2 competing factors. Obviously this season was always going to be a struggle, given the restrictions, having no squad, delayed preseason etc, so clearly nobody was expecting us to romp the league. But counter to that, the longer we stay at this level, the harder it is to get out of it - existing good players will want to move on, it being harder to convince new signings of our ambition if we’re stuck here, declining attendances potentially affecting the wages we can offer etc.  Clubs quite often bounce back out of this league almost immediately, or get stuck here.
In my mind, the best case for this season was we muddle along until January, making sure we’re not out of it completely. And then we try and get a few decent players in and kick on over the second half of the season. And we looked on pace for that.  We weren’t playing fantastically, but there were signs of a pattern of play and the new players were bedding in fairly well. And we were sat just below the playoffs, comfortably capable of mounting a charge, with a bit of luck.
I now think the season probably is a write-off - we’re drifting away from the playoffs and we need major surgery in January, not just a few tweaks and improvements, and that’s unlikely to happen.  The thing that’s really annoying me is that it’s a situation entirely of our own making.  We’ve effectively taken what looked to be a potentially promising season and decided to bin it for some future hope of something or other.

The way I see it, there are 2 competing factors. Obviously this season was always going to be a struggle, given the restrictions, having no squad, delayed preseason etc, so clearly nobody was expecting us to romp the league. But counter to that, the longer we stay at this level, the harder it is to get out of it - existing good players will want to move on, it being harder to convince new signings of our ambition if we’re stuck here, declining attendances potentially affecting the wages we can offer etc.  Clubs quite often bounce back out of this league almost immediately, or get stuck here.
In my mind, the best case for this season was we muddle along until January, making sure we’re not out of it completely. And then we try and get a few decent players in and kick on over the second half of the season. And we looked on pace for that.  We weren’t playing fantastically, but there were signs of a pattern of play and the new players were bedding in fairly well. And we were sat just below the playoffs, comfortably capable of mounting a charge, with a bit of luck.
I now think the season probably is a write-off - we’re drifting away from the playoffs and we need major surgery in January, not just a few tweaks and improvements, and that’s unlikely to happen.  The thing that’s really annoying me is that it’s a situation entirely of our own making.  We’ve effectively taken what looked to be a potentially promising season and decided to bin it for some future hope of something or other.

I think his time should be up. I was never a fan of the appointment, I think it was and remains a massive mistake, and the sooner that mistake is rectified, the sooner we can start recovering from it.  He very clearly has no intention of changing anything about his approach, and if this kind of form continues, I don’t see how we will be in any kind of touch with the playoffs to mount a challenge post-January.  If it’s clear we’re not going up this season, I suspect we lose all the good youngsters - why on earth are Knight, Cashin, Bird etc going to stay here when they will get plenty of offers at Championship level or higher.  And you can count on attendances declining if we’re still playing dreadful football in League 1, which is whittling away the big advantage we have over most other clubs in this league.
There are other factors too. If we persist in this style of play, we’re rendering the academy pointless. What’s the point of developing players like Darren Robinson, if they’re never going to fit into the managers style? There’s years of effort gone into developing technical ball-playing footballers that’s entirely wasted. And if you break that path into the first team, you’re damaging the academy in years to come, because having that in place is a key selling point when recruiting youngsters. Again, that’s just trashing another of the big advantages we should have at this level.
It’s not being a whiney baby, the club does not have an unconditional right to my support, it’s a 2-way transaction. If the club is telling me they are actively choosing to play dreadful football, that the club is going to be in a mess for years entirely because of decisions that they have made, then I don’t see why I should bother turning up. If the club is trying to play decent entertaining football, trying to do things right, then I will give them all the time in the world. But under Warne, I just don’t believe that.  I do not believe there is any justification to allowing a man with a track record of getting relegated from the Championship, to trash every facet of the club, in the hope that we might win some games in a couple of years time.

"It's very difficult. You want to keep them as fit and healthy as they can be. And to do that they have to train. But you've always got the risk that if you push them too far then they will break. I don't care what anybody tells you but nobody knows everything. There's nobody who knows what distances they should hit every week and what the high speed should be either."
So maybe I'm reading too much into that, but people are telling Warne that he's over-exerting the players in training, but he's doing it any way, and now we're picking up loads of injuries and he's saying basically nobody could have predicted it would have happened?

That's almost unavoidable though, given the transfer restrictions. You don't get that many mid-20s players on frees or loans.  January (and the next 2 windows too) will be the same, assuming the financial restrictions carry on.

This.
The "you have to give the manager time" maxim is absolutely correct, but the most important corollary is that you have to believe in where the manager is taking you.  I would not give Nigel Pearson or Gary Rowett time to build the team they wanted, but I would give, say, Steve McClaren all the time in the world. 

I think his time should be up. I was never a fan of the appointment, I think it was and remains a massive mistake, and the sooner that mistake is rectified, the sooner we can start recovering from it.  He very clearly has no intention of changing anything about his approach, and if this kind of form continues, I don’t see how we will be in any kind of touch with the playoffs to mount a challenge post-January.  If it’s clear we’re not going up this season, I suspect we lose all the good youngsters - why on earth are Knight, Cashin, Bird etc going to stay here when they will get plenty of offers at Championship level or higher.  And you can count on attendances declining if we’re still playing dreadful football in League 1, which is whittling away the big advantage we have over most other clubs in this league.
There are other factors too. If we persist in this style of play, we’re rendering the academy pointless. What’s the point of developing players like Darren Robinson, if they’re never going to fit into the managers style? There’s years of effort gone into developing technical ball-playing footballers that’s entirely wasted. And if you break that path into the first team, you’re damaging the academy in years to come, because having that in place is a key selling point when recruiting youngsters. Again, that’s just trashing another of the big advantages we should have at this level.
It’s not being a whiney baby, the club does not have an unconditional right to my support, it’s a 2-way transaction. If the club is telling me they are actively choosing to play dreadful football, that the club is going to be in a mess for years entirely because of decisions that they have made, then I don’t see why I should bother turning up. If the club is trying to play decent entertaining football, trying to do things right, then I will give them all the time in the world. But under Warne, I just don’t believe that.  I do not believe there is any justification to allowing a man with a track record of getting relegated from the Championship, to trash every facet of the club, in the hope that we might win some games in a couple of years time.

Warne is the one that immediately started talking about training intensity, he's obviously getting pressure from somewhere about it.  Clearly injuries are going to happen, but surely it's the managers job to try and minimise that risk?  And the fact that the 2 players with strains are the 2 players he's just accused of feigning injuries must raise some alarm bells...

"It's very difficult. You want to keep them as fit and healthy as they can be. And to do that they have to train. But you've always got the risk that if you push them too far then they will break. I don't care what anybody tells you but nobody knows everything. There's nobody who knows what distances they should hit every week and what the high speed should be either."
So maybe I'm reading too much into that, but people are telling Warne that he's over-exerting the players in training, but he's doing it any way, and now we're picking up loads of injuries and he's saying basically nobody could have predicted it would have happened?

Every player has strengths and weaknesses though.  All of our centre halves are basically big, strong, but a bit slow types.  They're absolutely fine dealing with balls in the air, and wrestling with big target men, but they're much less effective dealing with pacy players running at them. The back 3 we're playing basically forces them into those situations, as the wide centre halves have to pull out wide and deal with wingers, and the rapid turnovers (sling it forward, lose it, get broken on) results in lots of breakaways running at our defence.
None of the wide players we have are suited to playing wingback.  NML/Barkhuizen/Sibley etc aren't good enough defensively, and you hamper their attacking play if you make them start 20/30 yards deeper. And Roberts isn't good enough going forward to be one of our primary attacking threats.
There are similar types of issues with some of the midfielders and forwards too. It's not that they can only play one way, it's that we're expressly setting up in a way that both limits their strengths and exposes their weaknesses.

That's pretty much how interpret it. Right now, I'm worried how far he'll push McGoldrick and Smith before they pick up muscle injuries.
Davies was out for 7 games due to a thigh strain earlier in the season. He was clearly dropped back into the side too soon. Chester was out for the first 10 games due to an achilles problem but has played every league game for Warne. Both were at high risk of injury, especially playing this style of play.
Injuries will only continue to mount up over the next month before players start coming back.

"It's very difficult. You want to keep them as fit and healthy as they can be. And to do that they have to train. But you've always got the risk that if you push them too far then they will break. I don't care what anybody tells you but nobody knows everything. There's nobody who knows what distances they should hit every week and what the high speed should be either."
So maybe I'm reading too much into that, but people are telling Warne that he's over-exerting the players in training, but he's doing it any way, and now we're picking up loads of injuries and he's saying basically nobody could have predicted it would have happened?

This.
The "you have to give the manager time" maxim is absolutely correct, but the most important corollary is that you have to believe in where the manager is taking you.  I would not give Nigel Pearson or Gary Rowett time to build the team they wanted, but I would give, say, Steve McClaren all the time in the world. 

"It's very difficult. You want to keep them as fit and healthy as they can be. And to do that they have to train. But you've always got the risk that if you push them too far then they will break. I don't care what anybody tells you but nobody knows everything. There's nobody who knows what distances they should hit every week and what the high speed should be either."
So maybe I'm reading too much into that, but people are telling Warne that he's over-exerting the players in training, but he's doing it any way, and now we're picking up loads of injuries and he's saying basically nobody could have predicted it would have happened?

I think his time should be up. I was never a fan of the appointment, I think it was and remains a massive mistake, and the sooner that mistake is rectified, the sooner we can start recovering from it.  He very clearly has no intention of changing anything about his approach, and if this kind of form continues, I don’t see how we will be in any kind of touch with the playoffs to mount a challenge post-January.  If it’s clear we’re not going up this season, I suspect we lose all the good youngsters - why on earth are Knight, Cashin, Bird etc going to stay here when they will get plenty of offers at Championship level or higher.  And you can count on attendances declining if we’re still playing dreadful football in League 1, which is whittling away the big advantage we have over most other clubs in this league.
There are other factors too. If we persist in this style of play, we’re rendering the academy pointless. What’s the point of developing players like Darren Robinson, if they’re never going to fit into the managers style? There’s years of effort gone into developing technical ball-playing footballers that’s entirely wasted. And if you break that path into the first team, you’re damaging the academy in years to come, because having that in place is a key selling point when recruiting youngsters. Again, that’s just trashing another of the big advantages we should have at this level.
It’s not being a whiney baby, the club does not have an unconditional right to my support, it’s a 2-way transaction. If the club is telling me they are actively choosing to play dreadful football, that the club is going to be in a mess for years entirely because of decisions that they have made, then I don’t see why I should bother turning up. If the club is trying to play decent entertaining football, trying to do things right, then I will give them all the time in the world. But under Warne, I just don’t believe that.  I do not believe there is any justification to allowing a man with a track record of getting relegated from the Championship, to trash every facet of the club, in the hope that we might win some games in a couple of years time.

SOME wanted 3 at the back because they wanted Knight in midfield and thought 3 at the back was the only way to do that. Rosenior even said he would have tried Smith there if he wasn't injured in pre-season. What did Warne do on Saturday? Went back to a back four with Smith at RB.
Rosenior's system only needed tweaking, and with a couple of additions in January he wold have achieved that. The passing between defenders was for two reasons. Not having those couple of additions, but also the style of drawing the opposition out of position. 
The majority of fans didn't want super direct play, bypassing the midfield. They wanted a more urgent style of play, passing between lines, without sacrificing the amount of possession.
Most of all, fans want winning football. As I've mentioned before, only Ted Magner has a better win% than Rosenior in the history of our club. If the quality of football is crap, you have to make sure you're getting results, and so far Warne is failing. Warne is quickly joining the Jewell, Brown and Pearson group as managers with the worst record for our club. He's already got a worse record than Tommy Docherty.

This.
The "you have to give the manager time" maxim is absolutely correct, but the most important corollary is that you have to believe in where the manager is taking you.  I would not give Nigel Pearson or Gary Rowett time to build the team they wanted, but I would give, say, Steve McClaren all the time in the world. 

This.
The "you have to give the manager time" maxim is absolutely correct, but the most important corollary is that you have to believe in where the manager is taking you.  I would not give Nigel Pearson or Gary Rowett time to build the team they wanted, but I would give, say, Steve McClaren all the time in the world. 

Probably because of where we were when Rosenior was relieved of his duties. We were outside the playoffs on goal difference and his overall record as manager was the best we've had in 75 years. Instead, we're now 5 points behind 6th, with only Pearson having a worse record since Jewell.
There's no sign of things improving. If anything, results and performances are getting worse. He's pointed the finger at a number of players already, specifically regarding injuries and is ignoring his own role in that. It's no surprise that players who haven't had a good pre-season and others who no longer have the fitness levels required are picking up injuries. Yet, Warne consistently keeps players who are running on empty on the pitch and sticks to a style which puts the older players (specifically our defence) at risk of picking up muscle injuries.

That's the root of the issue though.  Changing the fabric of the club is what Warne needs to do to get his method to work.  I've been speaking to some Rotherham fans on another forum, and they openly say that we will do absolutely nothing until Warne has had a full preseason with the players, as his approach is so based on fitness.  And given our truncated preseason, the issue is even more acute here.  So if you believe in Warne, you have to give him 2+ seasons to change the entire structure of the club, and you have to be willing to accept that if it doesn't work, it will take another manager 2+ years to change it back.  If we aren't prepared to potentially write off ~4 seasons, then there's no point even giving Warne the rest of this season.
I'm pretty sure I've made my position on the matter pretty clear elsewhere in the thread.

It's a stick or twist decision. Sticking with Warne will cause a lot of damage to what we have left after years of mismanagement. The academy graduates in the first team will leave to Championship sides, and we'll go in to next season with just Wildsmith, Mendez-Laing, Barkhuizen, Hourihane and Collins from the current squad. All the investment in the academy will be wasted as none will be suited to Warne's style. Attendances will dwindle this season, and ST sales will be lower for next season. Academy recruitment will be damaged as youngsters won't see a pathway to the first team anymore.
The first team will be set back at least 1 year, more likely 2. The academy will go back to 2008 standard.

I'm roughly in agreement with this. 
I'm in the it was mistake to appoint him but we have to let this play out now camp. 
It comes down to this...
Almost no one in the squad suits his style of football and we are in an embargo so are limited in the transfer market especially in the Jan window, so I fail to see any scope for major improvement this season.