duncanjwitham

Not picking you out particularly with this, it's more of a general comment, but the bold bits get to the root of why I'm so opposed to Warne.
The way I see it, we have everything off-field ready for the Premier League - the fanbase size, the stadium, the training ground etc are all good enough.  Obviously we have no divine right to be in any league, but in theory there's no reason why we shouldn't be in the same group of clubs as the likes of Leicester/Burnley/Fulham/Brighton/Norwich etc who have spent at least as much time in the Prem as they have out of it in recent seasons.  I'm not saying we can win it like Leicester or be top 6 like Brighton or anything, but we absolutely have the potential to get there and stay there, but the onus is on us as a club to make it happen.
Obviously, one way that happens is that a new owner comes along and throws a lot of money at the club.  But there's no guarantee this happens, there's no guarantee it works if it does, and we all know what the potential fallout can be if it goes wrong.  It's certainly not an option we should be relying on.  Another way is just genuine luck, alignment of stars type stuff - you get the right manager at the right time, a bunch of signings all work out and you hit the jackpot.  We came close with Burley+Rasiak+Idiakez... and McClaren+Martin+Bryson... but ultimately fell short.  Again, that's not something you can rely on - you need a lot of things to all hit at once, and even then it might not work.  And it gets harder and harder as the championship gets dominated by clubs with parachute payments.
So IMO we should be doing the one thing that we have some degree of control over, and that's doing our level best to get the most we can out of the academy.  But that means fully committing to it.  When academy players are hitting 17/18/19/20 (it will be different for each players), they need to start being introduced to senior football.  If they aren't they won't progress.  If we take the approach that we can't play youth players now, we need to get promoted first, then you're basically writing off the current generation of academy players.  They won't get the first team exposure they need and won't kick on. 
So if we do get promoted what happens?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get stabilised in this league first.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to kick on for the top 6 now.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get promoted to the prem first.  If your attitude is "we can't afford to play them now", then you won't be able to play them when they're good enough later, because they won't get good enough.
You can't just have an academy sat on the sidelines and hope it produces players now and then.  If you want to be like Southampton and have a steady stream of them, you have to gear the whole club up to make it happen.  You play similar styles of football across all age groups, you gear your transfer policy to not block promising players, you commit to giving youngsters first team chances when they're ready and if they take it you let them run with it.  And from what I can see, we can't do any of that with Warne in charge.  So we're just stuck hoping a youngster pops up, fully formed, once in a blue moon.  And that's one of the big advantages we could have over similar sized clubs that we are just choosing to throw away.
I have no idea if Weston is good enough, I've never seen him play.  But by all accounts he did well when he came on, and scored a good goal.  If you give him say 20 minutes against Barnsley and he scores again, then okay, maybe we've got something here.  If he then starts against Crewe and scores, then we've got a potential first team striker for nothing.  And if he doesn't do any of that then fine, he goes back to the U21s and maybe gets another shot in a month or 2.  But right now, we've just got a guy that scored a goal once and then never played again, which is no use to anyone.
Sorry everyone for the long post, but I genuinely think appointing Warne was a catastrophic mistake for a lot of reasons.  The ridiculous short-termism of "he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly" sums it up - it's like there's no thought as to what happens when we do get promoted.  And when I see fans almost actively celebrating it ("I don't care about academy players, we won 3-0" type stuff) I just find it a bit sad really.  I want the club to be in the premier league, I want the club to play good football, and I want to see academy players getting into the first team and doing well, and I want the club to be actively trying to make all that stuff happen, not just flailing around doing stuff at random and hoping that one day it might work.
(and breathe...)

Not picking you out particularly with this, it's more of a general comment, but the bold bits get to the root of why I'm so opposed to Warne.
The way I see it, we have everything off-field ready for the Premier League - the fanbase size, the stadium, the training ground etc are all good enough.  Obviously we have no divine right to be in any league, but in theory there's no reason why we shouldn't be in the same group of clubs as the likes of Leicester/Burnley/Fulham/Brighton/Norwich etc who have spent at least as much time in the Prem as they have out of it in recent seasons.  I'm not saying we can win it like Leicester or be top 6 like Brighton or anything, but we absolutely have the potential to get there and stay there, but the onus is on us as a club to make it happen.
Obviously, one way that happens is that a new owner comes along and throws a lot of money at the club.  But there's no guarantee this happens, there's no guarantee it works if it does, and we all know what the potential fallout can be if it goes wrong.  It's certainly not an option we should be relying on.  Another way is just genuine luck, alignment of stars type stuff - you get the right manager at the right time, a bunch of signings all work out and you hit the jackpot.  We came close with Burley+Rasiak+Idiakez... and McClaren+Martin+Bryson... but ultimately fell short.  Again, that's not something you can rely on - you need a lot of things to all hit at once, and even then it might not work.  And it gets harder and harder as the championship gets dominated by clubs with parachute payments.
So IMO we should be doing the one thing that we have some degree of control over, and that's doing our level best to get the most we can out of the academy.  But that means fully committing to it.  When academy players are hitting 17/18/19/20 (it will be different for each players), they need to start being introduced to senior football.  If they aren't they won't progress.  If we take the approach that we can't play youth players now, we need to get promoted first, then you're basically writing off the current generation of academy players.  They won't get the first team exposure they need and won't kick on. 
So if we do get promoted what happens?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get stabilised in this league first.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to kick on for the top 6 now.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get promoted to the prem first.  If your attitude is "we can't afford to play them now", then you won't be able to play them when they're good enough later, because they won't get good enough.
You can't just have an academy sat on the sidelines and hope it produces players now and then.  If you want to be like Southampton and have a steady stream of them, you have to gear the whole club up to make it happen.  You play similar styles of football across all age groups, you gear your transfer policy to not block promising players, you commit to giving youngsters first team chances when they're ready and if they take it you let them run with it.  And from what I can see, we can't do any of that with Warne in charge.  So we're just stuck hoping a youngster pops up, fully formed, once in a blue moon.  And that's one of the big advantages we could have over similar sized clubs that we are just choosing to throw away.
I have no idea if Weston is good enough, I've never seen him play.  But by all accounts he did well when he came on, and scored a good goal.  If you give him say 20 minutes against Barnsley and he scores again, then okay, maybe we've got something here.  If he then starts against Crewe and scores, then we've got a potential first team striker for nothing.  And if he doesn't do any of that then fine, he goes back to the U21s and maybe gets another shot in a month or 2.  But right now, we've just got a guy that scored a goal once and then never played again, which is no use to anyone.
Sorry everyone for the long post, but I genuinely think appointing Warne was a catastrophic mistake for a lot of reasons.  The ridiculous short-termism of "he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly" sums it up - it's like there's no thought as to what happens when we do get promoted.  And when I see fans almost actively celebrating it ("I don't care about academy players, we won 3-0" type stuff) I just find it a bit sad really.  I want the club to be in the premier league, I want the club to play good football, and I want to see academy players getting into the first team and doing well, and I want the club to be actively trying to make all that stuff happen, not just flailing around doing stuff at random and hoping that one day it might work.
(and breathe...)

Weston already has experience of men's football at 5 different clubs now
19/20 - Blackpool in the FA Cup
21/22 - Rangers B against lower league first teams in a Cup competition.
21/22 - Rangers in the SPL
22/23 - 18 games across different competitions for Partick Thistle (2nd division)
22/23 - 13 games for Cove Rangers in the Scottish Championship (2nd division)

If it was a one off, I would agree with you. However, it's a consistent pattern from when Warne first became manager. Opportunities to guve academy players minutes to prove themselves and to give first teamers a little rest to prevent burnout.
Warne has also repeatedly come out with comments suggesting he: doesn't trust young players; thinks it's disrespectful to the opposition to use them for a meaningful amount of time; has a blind view that you need to be a League 1 level player just to play 10 minutes in a game; and also comes out with excuses why he didn't bring them on ("ran out of subs").

No he didn't try to make them first team regulars, he was forced to play them because of injuries. Without the misfortune for the other players, Thompson and Rooney wouldn't have had a sniff of a game. It was the same last season when Warne oversaw a long unbeaten run, but the reality is that he was forced to change the formation, because of injuries. He had been trying to play 3 at the back, and it was proving disastrous, but was forced to go 4 or 5 at the back, and the good run resulted from that exact circumstance. But as soon as he got the chance he leapt back to 3 at the back, curiously at the same time that the good run came to an end. Funny, that!
It is no surprise that there are loads of questions being asked of Warne, because there are loads of questions that need to be asked.

Your first sentence is basically bang on IMO.  We’ve got a big first team squad, playing a different style to the academy, with a manager that appears to not trust academy players when it really matters.  None of those things are conducive to developing academy players into first team ones.
Like I said, “barring an injury crisis”… with injuries and international call ups we had a lot of players missing for the last 2 games.  Weston probably doesn’t make the bench in either of those games if we have a reasonably fit squad. And like @Ghost of Clough said, he should have been given at least 20 minutes or so in one or both of those games.  Nobody is saying you have to play a team full of academy players all the time, just let them have a chance when they look like they’ve earned it.
The “hard reset” is only going to affect the rate at which players come through in the future. It’s not affecting the players that are still here and potentially ready right now.  Darren Robinson (for example) hasn’t suddenly got worse because of it.
It doesn’t matter who planned the transfers, it was clear that we weren’t going into the season intending to use Thompson and Rooney as regular first teamers, and they only came into the team after a major shift following a poor start.
Just outside the playoffs is not “promotion form”, unless the rules have been changed since I last looked? We’ve played well in a tiny handful of games where the opposition has completely stood off us and let us play, that’s it.  And we don’t know what would have happened if Thompson and Rooney hadn’t got injured. There were a lot of other first teamers out injured at the time - they could have easily both been benched for say Barkhuizen and Ward when they got back to fitness.  And arguably both of those players have had their development harmed by lack of usage last season.

Well, we currently have none of those things, so... 
We're not demanding the earth, we know where we've come from, and we're not expecting instant success.  What we want is a clear sign that we're actually working towards those things.  Right now, the messages coming from the club are the exact opposite of all of those.  You might disregard that Warne clip as a throwaway comment but it's *really* not, it ties up perfectly with everything he is actually doing on the pitch regarding academy players.  They are at best an after thought.  A bone to be tossed their way if there's nothing important on the line.  He hasn't integrated Brown at all, he's barely had a kick.  Thompson and Rooney were barely used last season, and only used this season after his carefully planned summer transfer spree turned into a complete disaster.  He hails Bird as our best player, then plays him a position where he barely touches the ball half the time.  Likewise, he hails Sibley as our best finisher then never brings him on when we need a goal.  Robinson is apparently so good that Villa and Southampton are looking at him, yet he's barely kicked a ball for us.  Weston scores on his debut, is then denied two obvious opportunities to take his chance and run with it.  The list goes on and on and on.
You can't just say that we're in too much of a mess to integrate academy players, in fact it's the perfect opportunity to do it.  Academy players don't just magically turn into first-team players overnight, they need to introduced slowly into the first team.  Right now, we've got a massively bloated first team squad - if everyone's fit we have 25 first team players (I'm including Thompson and Rooney, but not Robinson, Brown, Weston etc).  Even if you exclude the long-term injured, it's still a huge squad.  Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench, let alone getting on the pitch.  Even last season, with a smaller squad, we over-played older players to the point of exhaustion rather than give a few minutes to youth players.  We've taken a position where we had the perfect opportunity to introduce academy players to fill in the gaps in the squad, and done out level best to make sure it never happened.

Well, we currently have none of those things, so... 
We're not demanding the earth, we know where we've come from, and we're not expecting instant success.  What we want is a clear sign that we're actually working towards those things.  Right now, the messages coming from the club are the exact opposite of all of those.  You might disregard that Warne clip as a throwaway comment but it's *really* not, it ties up perfectly with everything he is actually doing on the pitch regarding academy players.  They are at best an after thought.  A bone to be tossed their way if there's nothing important on the line.  He hasn't integrated Brown at all, he's barely had a kick.  Thompson and Rooney were barely used last season, and only used this season after his carefully planned summer transfer spree turned into a complete disaster.  He hails Bird as our best player, then plays him a position where he barely touches the ball half the time.  Likewise, he hails Sibley as our best finisher then never brings him on when we need a goal.  Robinson is apparently so good that Villa and Southampton are looking at him, yet he's barely kicked a ball for us.  Weston scores on his debut, is then denied two obvious opportunities to take his chance and run with it.  The list goes on and on and on.
You can't just say that we're in too much of a mess to integrate academy players, in fact it's the perfect opportunity to do it.  Academy players don't just magically turn into first-team players overnight, they need to introduced slowly into the first team.  Right now, we've got a massively bloated first team squad - if everyone's fit we have 25 first team players (I'm including Thompson and Rooney, but not Robinson, Brown, Weston etc).  Even if you exclude the long-term injured, it's still a huge squad.  Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench, let alone getting on the pitch.  Even last season, with a smaller squad, we over-played older players to the point of exhaustion rather than give a few minutes to youth players.  We've taken a position where we had the perfect opportunity to introduce academy players to fill in the gaps in the squad, and done out level best to make sure it never happened.

Fair points. I guess my point about the academy wasn't a reflection on anyone's individual ability, more that maybe Robinson is better utilised as a regular in the u21s so they can prosper, rather than sporadic first team appearances where he may not make an impact. Although thinking about it, these two aren't mutually exclusive.
I think I agree with the overall sentiment. I love to see our homegrown youngsters utilised. Warne's comments on this were maybe a bit misguided, but I do think he's utilised youth more than some previous managers e.g. Rowett, Clement
Maybe I'm just being blindly optimistic, I was guilty of this with Cocu as I did really want him to succeed. I think with Warne there's just a few too many unlucky, mitigating factors at the minute for me to condemn him. Just feels like the picture will be clearer with a fully fit squad, and a chance to build proper consistency and form- the inability to field a settled XI due to injuries is a big thing I've not heard many talk about.

Just picking up on your Weston comment. The crisisism isn't that Weston should be playing full 90s. There were two very clear opportunities to use him in the last 2 games.
The first was against Barnsley. We were 3-0 up after 80 mins played and still had 1 sub break to use (3 subs remaining). Weston absolutely should have been brought on. At worst, it would give Collins (our only fit forward) a little rest. At best, Weston feels rewarded and has the chance to earn a more permanent role in the squad.

Well, we currently have none of those things, so... 
We're not demanding the earth, we know where we've come from, and we're not expecting instant success.  What we want is a clear sign that we're actually working towards those things.  Right now, the messages coming from the club are the exact opposite of all of those.  You might disregard that Warne clip as a throwaway comment but it's *really* not, it ties up perfectly with everything he is actually doing on the pitch regarding academy players.  They are at best an after thought.  A bone to be tossed their way if there's nothing important on the line.  He hasn't integrated Brown at all, he's barely had a kick.  Thompson and Rooney were barely used last season, and only used this season after his carefully planned summer transfer spree turned into a complete disaster.  He hails Bird as our best player, then plays him a position where he barely touches the ball half the time.  Likewise, he hails Sibley as our best finisher then never brings him on when we need a goal.  Robinson is apparently so good that Villa and Southampton are looking at him, yet he's barely kicked a ball for us.  Weston scores on his debut, is then denied two obvious opportunities to take his chance and run with it.  The list goes on and on and on.
You can't just say that we're in too much of a mess to integrate academy players, in fact it's the perfect opportunity to do it.  Academy players don't just magically turn into first-team players overnight, they need to introduced slowly into the first team.  Right now, we've got a massively bloated first team squad - if everyone's fit we have 25 first team players (I'm including Thompson and Rooney, but not Robinson, Brown, Weston etc).  Even if you exclude the long-term injured, it's still a huge squad.  Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench, let alone getting on the pitch.  Even last season, with a smaller squad, we over-played older players to the point of exhaustion rather than give a few minutes to youth players.  We've taken a position where we had the perfect opportunity to introduce academy players to fill in the gaps in the squad, and done out level best to make sure it never happened.

Well, we currently have none of those things, so... 
We're not demanding the earth, we know where we've come from, and we're not expecting instant success.  What we want is a clear sign that we're actually working towards those things.  Right now, the messages coming from the club are the exact opposite of all of those.  You might disregard that Warne clip as a throwaway comment but it's *really* not, it ties up perfectly with everything he is actually doing on the pitch regarding academy players.  They are at best an after thought.  A bone to be tossed their way if there's nothing important on the line.  He hasn't integrated Brown at all, he's barely had a kick.  Thompson and Rooney were barely used last season, and only used this season after his carefully planned summer transfer spree turned into a complete disaster.  He hails Bird as our best player, then plays him a position where he barely touches the ball half the time.  Likewise, he hails Sibley as our best finisher then never brings him on when we need a goal.  Robinson is apparently so good that Villa and Southampton are looking at him, yet he's barely kicked a ball for us.  Weston scores on his debut, is then denied two obvious opportunities to take his chance and run with it.  The list goes on and on and on.
You can't just say that we're in too much of a mess to integrate academy players, in fact it's the perfect opportunity to do it.  Academy players don't just magically turn into first-team players overnight, they need to introduced slowly into the first team.  Right now, we've got a massively bloated first team squad - if everyone's fit we have 25 first team players (I'm including Thompson and Rooney, but not Robinson, Brown, Weston etc).  Even if you exclude the long-term injured, it's still a huge squad.  Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench, let alone getting on the pitch.  Even last season, with a smaller squad, we over-played older players to the point of exhaustion rather than give a few minutes to youth players.  We've taken a position where we had the perfect opportunity to introduce academy players to fill in the gaps in the squad, and done out level best to make sure it never happened.

We are already suffering from 3.  We actively chose to go there the moment we let Rosenior build a possession-based team and replaced him 10 games later with a guy that wanted to play very directly.  And despite a dozen or so summer signings, I *still* think that we have a squad that is more suited to playing possession football than WarneBall.  It will take less squad chopping and changing to get a new manager in to play some kind of possession football (it doesn't have to be exactly what Rosenior was trying to use) than to let Warne build the team he actually wants.  And I am fully aware that we have a lot of players out of contract in the summer, but I honestly think that with a different manager, there's a decent chance we get to keep a fair chunk of those if we want to.
And as for 4, see point 3 really.  We looked at what happened under Morris (in terms of squad upheaval, if not finances) and decided to just repeat that all over again.

I don't believe any of them to be 'true'
1. I can criticise a manager (or player) but still support the team on matchday
2. I highly doubt Clowes doesn't have a contingency plan in case he felt he needed to sack any member of staff
3. We're "in this mess" because our former owner agreed to spend more than he could actually afford. If we had changed managers just as often, but with a style of play in mind and a sensible budget, we wouldn't have gone into administration.
4. A manager willing to look at the long term picture by recruiting accordingly and introducing academy prospects is looking at the long term picture. 

Some of us where saying it all back before he was even appointed though.  It was obvious the type of football and the type of players he was using at Rotherham were radically different to what we currently had in the first team, and what our academy was geared up to produce.  It was obvious that it was going to be difficult to change that in the short term, given EFL restrictions on transfers etc and the timescales of academy player development (if we even wanted to change it etc).  And if the plan was for him to come here and do something completely different to what he did at Rotherham (thus negating the previous points), then why get him at all, because it basically also negates all his successes at Rotherham if we're not asking him to repeat them.  If was obviously a wrong-headed appointment if you apply even the slightest bit of thought beyond "Paul Warne wins football matches".

Some of us where saying it all back before he was even appointed though.  It was obvious the type of football and the type of players he was using at Rotherham were radically different to what we currently had in the first team, and what our academy was geared up to produce.  It was obvious that it was going to be difficult to change that in the short term, given EFL restrictions on transfers etc and the timescales of academy player development (if we even wanted to change it etc).  And if the plan was for him to come here and do something completely different to what he did at Rotherham (thus negating the previous points), then why get him at all, because it basically also negates all his successes at Rotherham if we're not asking him to repeat them.  If was obviously a wrong-headed appointment if you apply even the slightest bit of thought beyond "Paul Warne wins football matches".

It depends which markets you're shopping in tbh.  If you're signing people like Bradley Johnson, Scott Malone, Martyn Waghorn (first time round), there's clearly no resale value there either.  And there's plenty of potential to be found on frees, especially if you're looking at cast-offs from premier league academies, for example.

Rotherham haven't got a game either, it's the international break 👍

Rotherham haven't got a game either, it's the international break 👍

I was a big fan of Cocu. He clearly had a plan. It took serious guts to pick the team he did in the league cup. I think had it been anyone other than Florest he wouldn't have got the flak he did. He gave youth minutes over experienced players. Had it not been for Covid, Bird, Knight and Sibley would have commanded big fees. He was exactly what those players needed, a good coach. I will maintain that he did a better (or at least equal job) as Lampard. We only scored 9 league goals fewer. However, luck and fate were against him for the second season. Will remain a what if for me.
Well. That says it all really. I didn't need to type all my previous posts. That'll do pig, that'll do.

One word - patronising.
He will never have any intention of using the academy - he doesn't care one bit about trying to develop players but that's because he doesn't have a clue about developing.
Rubbish coach - get rid. 

And with that, he can fook right off.

There's a big gap between starting a team full of kids and basically playing none of them though.  
The way I see it, Weston should have been given 20 minutes or so against Barnsley.  Maybe he sticks away that 1-on-1 chance that Barkhuizen put miles wide or something.  Then if he does okay in that game, you start him in the Crewe game.  It's not the end of the world if he struggles, but if he plays well then all of a sudden you've got a useful first team squad player.  As it stands, Weston is a 20-year old that Warne doesn't want to play when it matters, so what point is there in him being here?  He's not suddenly going to turn into a useful player if he's barely allowed to play.

11:40 onwards in here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0grntp1
"Hopefully we'll be able to make subs, but not patronising the opposition, I'll only make subs if the game is completely out of control either way. If we're getting humped I might as well let the academy lads play and if we're winning comfortably I will."

There's a big gap between starting a team full of kids and basically playing none of them though.  
The way I see it, Weston should have been given 20 minutes or so against Barnsley.  Maybe he sticks away that 1-on-1 chance that Barkhuizen put miles wide or something.  Then if he does okay in that game, you start him in the Crewe game.  It's not the end of the world if he struggles, but if he plays well then all of a sudden you've got a useful first team squad player.  As it stands, Weston is a 20-year old that Warne doesn't want to play when it matters, so what point is there in him being here?  He's not suddenly going to turn into a useful player if he's barely allowed to play.