Alan Davies on Hillsborough

[G STAR RAM]

See both sides of the argument, I just think by doing this the FA are opening themselves up to all sorts of criticism....as usual!

[JoetheRam]

No club/disaster/fan's life is bigger than the sport. Sounds harsh but that's my opinion. Yeah it's obviously very sad and all for those involved, but they should not be allowed to dictate when to play a match - it's unfair on the opposition and allows one disaster to overshadow football in this country which is largely irrelevant to most of it's fans.

People have to go to work on the anniversary of a loved one dying, other teams play on the anniversaries of their disasters but Liverpool feel the need to wallow in the misery of an event that happened 23 years ago and do nothing but mourn for a day - I think they should pull themselves together and go and watch their team like they would any other Saturday. Going to support your team, the team your relative/friend died watching, would be a far better memorial to them and would avoid giving even greater weight to the feeling that Liverpool is "self-pity city".

In short - move on.

[PBW Ram]

I can see both opinions, but one poster very very clearly is riled by a personal disliking for Liverpool Football Club. It's a shame to see a grown man post like that.

But for those of you who have "no sympathy" for the Liverpool fans who died...erm, those 96 who were crushed, had they all bought conterfeit tickets? Were all of those 96 who were killed that day criminals? I have no doubt that an awful lot who died were not angels and a few were there without proper tickets, but come on, use your brain. Don't tarnish everyone under the same brush.

Bolton didn't have to play their next fixture after Muamba had collapsed, and that's just one player who hadn't even passed away.

Why are Liverpool trying to delay this fixture? To be awkward? Yeah, that must be why.

And it doesn't matter what Alan Davies said, because he's very funny on QI, has a very funny podcast and he's a true football man, so it's not disrepectful.

You should perhaps have mentioned that the same grown poster also agreed that the two issues are totally seperate, the memorial for the fans and those who died innocently and this stupid debate about Davies that should not have the exposure it has.

No hate for the club at all Duracell - you make a bold statement for someone who was neither at the original game, nor was at the replay nor was at Anfield for the following midweek game where Liverpool won 5-0.

I was and some of the things I was exposed to in those two games made me sick. It's wrong for me to say that? why exaclty?

No hate for the club, definitely no hate for the fans just an internal sense of hurt and anger at how the liverpool players of that period went about their business in the games following.

I am a grown man thanks, it means I dont get swayed easily by journalistic outcries.

I can see both sides of it but one young lads jumping to conclusions about something he has no idea about - it's a shame to see someone post like that.

I WAS THERE FOR ALL 3 GAMES - if you were there with me, then we can discuss it Duracell.

[DissRam]

No club/disaster/fan's life is bigger than the sport. Sounds harsh but that's my opinion. Yeah it's obviously very sad and all for those involved, but they should not be allowed to dictate when to play a match - it's unfair on the opposition and allows one disaster to overshadow football in this country which is largely irrelevant to most of it's fans.

People have to go to work on the anniversary of a loved one dying, other teams play on the anniversaries of their disasters but Liverpool feel the need to wallow in the misery of an event that happened 23 years ago and do nothing but mourn for a day - I think they should pull themselves together and go and watch their team like they would any other Saturday. Going to support your team, the team your relative/friend died watching, would be a far better memorial to them and would avoid giving even greater weight to the feeling that Liverpool is "self-pity city".

In short - move on.

I completely disagree. I value a person's life above any sport. But as I mentioned earlier, maybe I just don't love football as much as everyone else. If I had to choose to save someone's life by the game of football disappearing then I'm afraid you would not like my decision because you would have nothing to do on a Saturday afternoon.

[ladyram]

No club/disaster/fan's life is bigger than the sport. Sounds harsh but that's my opinion. Yeah it's obviously very sad and all for those involved, but they should not be allowed to dictate when to play a match - it's unfair on the opposition and allows one disaster to overshadow football in this country which is largely irrelevant to most of it's fans.

People have to go to work on the anniversary of a loved one dying, other teams play on the anniversaries of their disasters but Liverpool feel the need to wallow in the misery of an event that happened 23 years ago and do nothing but mourn for a day - I think they should pull themselves together and go and watch their team like they would any other Saturday. Going to support your team, the team your relative/friend died watching, would be a far better memorial to them and would avoid giving even greater weight to the feeling that Liverpool is "self-pity city".

In short - move on.

I have absolutely no words to express what I feel for that paragraph.

[JoetheRam]

I completely disagree. I value a person's life above any sport. But as I mentioned earlier, maybe I just don't love football as much as everyone else. If I had to choose to save someone's life by the game of football disappearing then I'm afraid you would not like my decision because you would have nothing to do on a Saturday afternoon.

So 1 person's life, a person who you've never met, is more important than the joy, passion, love, hate, excitement, hope, unity and everything else that football brings to millions of people? I can't agree. I'm not talking about what I'd do with my Saturday afternoons, because I have other interests - I can replace football easily, but I think people with absolutely nothing but football - these kids in war-torn countries, the pensioners who have nothing but their mate, a pint and a game of football to talk about before they go back to their flat and try and exist on £60 a week, would find it hard to fill their lives with something else.

[DissRam]

So 1 person's life, a person who you've never met, is more important than the joy, passion, love, hate, excitement, hope, unity and everything else that football brings to millions of people? I can't agree. I'm not talking about what I'd do with my Saturday afternoons, because I have other interests - I can replace football easily, but I think people with absolutely nothing but football - these kids in war-torn countries, the pensioners who have nothing but their mate, a pint and a game of football to talk about before they go back to their flat and try and exist on £60 a week, would find it hard to fill their lives with something else.

Well I'm afraid they would have to. I'm not trying to be a good Samaritan or anything, there are obviously a few exceptions.

[Leeds Ram]

Can we see some proper referencing please YR. Year,author, title of work, publisher and page number. It'll be good practice for Uni.

.

While you are correct, I am not writing an essay or dissertation on this forum 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> simply making quick and simple points and sometimes using others quotes to reinforce my position so no I shall not do that. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

[Butthead]

They are doing it wrong and 20 years later they've still not moved on. Still attacking everybody else rather than looking inward.

[Leeds Ram]

I can see both sides of the argument for this, I mean my dad has lost both of his brothers and his mum. If he dwelled on it would he be here now? but he gets up carries on and has the love of his family to keep going. He still has a good life despite these terrible events partly because he doesn't dwell upon it. My mum had an extremely difficult childhood, she has dwelt upon it and it has completely crippled her in some aspects, so I do understand the argument put forward that dwelling on a tragedy can be unhealthy rather than moving on and remembering those who died in a way which won't bring pain or anguish but simply joy.

[ladyram]

They are doing it wrong and 20 years later they've still not moved on. Still attacking everybody else rather than looking inward.

Butthead - have you looked at all the actual facts re Hillsborough? The police lying (admitting it) and the police changing witness statements to suit their own ends - Something which Parliament knows all about - that's a very interesting debate by the way and hence why the Committee has got access to all the papers, including the changed ones which have been locked away in the Parliament offices for all this time? This debate is online, feel free to have a read. It's very educating. Have you read The Taylor Report?

Next, about the 'they're doing it wrong' comment. Why? Have you lost a loved one and if so would you appreciate someone telling you that the way you're remembering them is wrong? Everyone deals with things their own way. Liverpool do it en-mass because it affects them all. Would DCFC do it any differently if the same thing happened to us? Would we thank other fans for saying we were doing it wrong? No.

And the comment about them moving on. For the rest of the year they get through the PTSD as best they can. Even now they have counselling, even now they struggle to cope with what they saw. People dying in front of them, the screams, the smells, the sheer fear of it all. Since Hillsborough I know of at least 3 Pool fans who have committed suicide because they couldn't handle the stress - and this stress can't be underestimated.

I wasn't at Hillsborough, I was watching on the telly - so I can't even begin to imagine what they went through and how they had to deal with the aftermath and the lies coming from the media, namely one evil *astard called Kelvin McKenzie and the lies coming from a so called Police chief called Duckinfield (and later from the rest of his stooges).

Nobody can say they should 'move on' until they have experienced exactly what those people went through that day and still experience all these years later. It's easy for some to say this but the reality for those people is completely different. Would anyone be willing to walk in their shoes for a day to find out what it must have been like?

I feel for all of them, they all deserve help and support, particulaly Anne Williams who is trying to prove to the courts that her son Kevin was still alive after this ridiculous and downright wrong 3.15 cut off point. ( Witnesses who were with Kevin have stated quite clearly that he was alive at this time, so why does she continually come up against courts who say otherwise when they weren't even there? Could it be that they have swept the decision under the carpet on the proviso that 'well it happened a long time ago, what difference does it make now'? That's one reason for a start that she can't move on and from one mother to another, I'd do the exact same thing. Kevins ashes are buried on the Kop goal line.

[Duracell]

You should perhaps have mentioned that the same grown poster also agreed that the two issues are totally seperate, the memorial for the fans and those who died innocently and this stupid debate about Davies that should not have the exposure it has.

No hate for the club at all Duracell - you make a bold statement for someone who was neither at the original game, nor was at the replay nor was at Anfield for the following midweek game where Liverpool won 5-0.

I was and some of the things I was exposed to in those two games made me sick. It's wrong for me to say that? why exaclty?

No hate for the club, definitely no hate for the fans just an internal sense of hurt and anger at how the liverpool players of that period went about their business in the games following.

I am a grown man thanks, it means I dont get swayed easily by journalistic outcries.

I can see both sides of it but one young lads jumping to conclusions about something he has no idea about - it's a shame to see someone post like that.

I WAS THERE FOR ALL 3 GAMES - if you were there with me, then we can discuss it Duracell.

I wasn't referring to you, sorry mate! I'll explain more in my PM.

[RotherhamRam]

I am not going to read through this thread as firstly I don't think it is an appropriate thread personally.

You may have your views on the incident, how its remembered and the politics around this. However to make this public within a thread or a podcast is insensitive, inappropriate as you do not know who is reading this and how this affects them.

At the end of the day there are a lot of myths surrounding that day. As an ex-copper who worked a number of football games their were a lot of errors by the police and match day officials which cost the lives of so many unfortunate people. The myth and this was down to the press was that it was the Liverpool fans who caused this, media played their role in this and the Police and the Government at the time used this to cover up the FUBAR by the Police Chief in charge. I know this as one of my good friends who was an officer at the time working the match retired 4 years after suffering from PTSD and is only just getting over this incident. The police were at fault NOT the fans. If it was the fans fault why was the enquiry made public. As an ex-copper it is hard for me to admit this but it is the right thing to say.

Another one is a number of people on the day died needlessley due to the fact that not enough Police Officers, match officials new basic first aid i.e. recovery position, if they did, less people would have lost their lifes. This is why coaches in football at grass roots have to all do a coaching award including first aid to ensure that people can be looked after.

At the end of the day I would not tell you or anyone else how to grieve, how to deal with the sad memories etc and what right has anyone to do this. So what if Liverpool do not play on this day at the end of the day the FA do not have a problem. The fact that the FA are ripping all the money out of the FA cup semi final games by holding them at Wembley is the reason why we have this problem. There are enough big enough stadiums around the country to hold these games on a Saturday. Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal to name just three. If Fa had done this then Chelsea would not be playing their game only two days before their champions league semi final. If this was the case this would not even be up for discussion.

Liverpool do not dictate this as if the FA directed them to play they would have to or forfeit the game and get fined. The FA do not shy away from these type of decisions look at the poppy debate.

This will be my last comment on this thread and hope people realise that this is a public thread and I would ask you to consider if it was your family, your friends who were there on that day and you heard comments or read views that may not show respect to the sad memories of the day how you would feel. This is not meant as a lecture but just want to ensure that this thread does not spiral into a slating one which shows us as being insensitive etc

[EastKentRam]

I am not going to read through this thread as firstly I don't think it is an appropriate thread personally.

You may have your views on the incident, how its remembered and the politics around this. However to make this public within a thread or a podcast is insensitive, inappropriate as you do not know who is reading this and how this affects them.

At the end of the day there are a lot of myths surrounding that day. As an ex-copper who worked a number of football games their were a lot of errors by the police and match day officials which cost the lives of so many unfortunate people. The myth and this was down to the press was that it was the Liverpool fans who caused this, media played their role in this and the Police and the Government at the time used this to cover up the FUBAR by the Police Chief in charge. I know this as one of my good friends who was an officer at the time working the match retired 4 years after suffering from PTSD and is only just getting over this incident. The police were at fault NOT the fans. If it was the fans fault why was the enquiry made public. As an ex-copper it is hard for me to admit this but it is the right thing to say.

Another one is a number of people on the day died needlessley due to the fact that not enough Police Officers, match officials new basic first aid i.e. recovery position, if they did, less people would have lost their lifes. This is why coaches in football at grass roots have to all do a coaching award including first aid to ensure that people can be looked after.

At the end of the day I would not tell you or anyone else how to grieve, how to deal with the sad memories etc and what right has anyone to do this. So what if Liverpool do not play on this day at the end of the day the FA do not have a problem. The fact that the FA are ripping all the money out of the FA cup semi final games by holding them at Wembley is the reason why we have this problem. There are enough big enough stadiums around the country to hold these games on a Saturday. Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal to name just three. If Fa had done this then Chelsea would not be playing their game only two days before their champions league semi final. If this was the case this would not even be up for discussion.

Liverpool do not dictate this as if the FA directed them to play they would have to or forfeit the game and get fined. The FA do not shy away from these type of decisions look at the poppy debate.

This will be my last comment on this thread and hope people realise that this is a public thread and I would ask you to consider if it was your family, your friends who were there on that day and you heard comments or read views that may not show respect to the sad memories of the day how you would feel. This is not meant as a lecture but just want to ensure that this thread does not spiral into a slating one which shows us as being insensitive etc

I'm sorry, but get off your high horse. Trying to tell people what to say and not what to say on a public forum over an iusse that has been discussed for years. People have there opinions and i dont see how you're in any position to tell people not to express them.

If the victims of Hillsborough havent heard/read negative press over this then they need to get out more. Everyone has to deal with death and sadness in there life time, yes this was a tragedy but too many people try and make out that Hillsborough victims should get special treatment over the rest of the world who've had to deal with similar problems.

[ladyram]

EKR, the Hillsborough families want only one thing, justice.

Looking at all the actual established FACTS of this event, can any of us say we'd do it any differently?

[EastKentRam]

EKR, the Hillsborough families want only one thing, justice.

Looking at all the actual established FACTS of this event, can any of us say we'd do it any differently?

What do they want to happen? The police to take responsibility? The police there to be sent to prison 30 years after the event? The other fans there to be punished for the part they played?

The way i see it, what ever they do it's not going to bring their loved ones back. I expect every person involved that day that contributed to the death of 96 people carries that guilt around with them to this day.

[VulcanRam]

I am not going to read through this thread as firstly I don't think it is an appropriate thread personally.

You may have your views on the incident, how its remembered and the politics around this. However to make this public within a thread or a podcast is insensitive, inappropriate as you do not know who is reading this and how this affects them.

At the end of the day there are a lot of myths surrounding that day. As an ex-copper who worked a number of football games their were a lot of errors by the police and match day officials which cost the lives of so many unfortunate people. The myth and this was down to the press was that it was the Liverpool fans who caused this, media played their role in this and the Police and the Government at the time used this to cover up the FUBAR by the Police Chief in charge. I know this as one of my good friends who was an officer at the time working the match retired 4 years after suffering from PTSD and is only just getting over this incident. The police were at fault NOT the fans. If it was the fans fault why was the enquiry made public. As an ex-copper it is hard for me to admit this but it is the right thing to say.

Another one is a number of people on the day died needlessley due to the fact that not enough Police Officers, match officials new basic first aid i.e. recovery position, if they did, less people would have lost their lifes. This is why coaches in football at grass roots have to all do a coaching award including first aid to ensure that people can be looked after.

At the end of the day I would not tell you or anyone else how to grieve, how to deal with the sad memories etc and what right has anyone to do this. So what if Liverpool do not play on this day at the end of the day the FA do not have a problem. The fact that the FA are ripping all the money out of the FA cup semi final games by holding them at Wembley is the reason why we have this problem. There are enough big enough stadiums around the country to hold these games on a Saturday. Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal to name just three. If Fa had done this then Chelsea would not be playing their game only two days before their champions league semi final. If this was the case this would not even be up for discussion.

Liverpool do not dictate this as if the FA directed them to play they would have to or forfeit the game and get fined. The FA do not shy away from these type of decisions look at the poppy debate.

This will be my last comment on this thread and hope people realise that this is a public thread and I would ask you to consider if it was your family, your friends who were there on that day and you heard comments or read views that may not show respect to the sad memories of the day how you would feel. This is not meant as a lecture but just want to ensure that this thread does not spiral into a slating one which shows us as being insensitive etc

But it's ok for you to do it....