smiffy Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Leicester were relegated with 52 pts, how often does that happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Bris why are you at it again stating your opinion as Fact. Plain and simple it isn't fact. Statistics can be used to manipulate and argument, people can support or argue a point, people can use information etc to support their opinion but these are not facts. The only facts is that Nigel Clough spent time learning how to manager a club throughout at non-league which is what a manager does at that level. They have to work within a budget because if they over spend downthere then there are no second chances like at Portsmouth, Leeds to name (Just ask Ilkeston last season). He has kept us in the Championship following Jewell nightmare rein (that is my opinion) when many have and still keep stating we are getting relegated. He delegates the academy to his backroom staff who are producing some fine players and earning a very good reputation and by all accounts he keeps a look over the academy. As you like facts of all the managers you have mentioned how many have set up an academy base where so many home grown players has been produced at one time into the 1st team and holding their own. None of the managers I can think off have relied or placed trust into home grown players. Most of Them I believe either inherited a premiership squad (di matteo for one) or was able to fund players into the team. (this is my opinion) Stop trying to pass of your opinion as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiffy Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Bris why are you at it again stating your opinion as Fact. Plain and simple it isn't fact. Statistics can be used to manipulate and argument, people can support or argue a point, people can use information etc to support their opinion but these are not facts. The only facts is that Nigel Clough spent time learning how to manager a club throughout at non-league which is what a manager does at that level. They have to work within a budget because if they over spend downthere then there are no second chances like at Portsmouth, Leeds to name (Just ask Ilkeston last season). He has kept us in the Championship following Jewell nightmare rein (that is my opinion) when many have and still keep stating we are getting relegated. He delegates the academy to his backroom staff who are producing some fine players and earning a very good reputation and by all accounts he keeps a look over the academy. As you like facts of all the managers you have mentioned how many have set up an academy base where so many home grown players has been produced at one time into the 1st team and holding their own. None of the managers I can think off have relied or placed trust into home grown players. Most of Them I believe either inherited a premiership squad (di matteo for one) or was able to fund players into the team. (this is my opinion) Stop trying to pass of your opinion as fact. is it a fact that he is passing his opinion as fact,or is it merly your opinion.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Bris why are you at it again stating your opinion as Fact. Plain and simple it isn't fact. Statistics can be used to manipulate and argument, people can support or argue a point, people can use information etc to support their opinion but these are not facts. The only facts is that Nigel Clough spent time learning how to manager a club throughout at non-league which is what a manager does at that level. They have to work within a budget because if they over spend downthere then there are no second chances like at Portsmouth, Leeds to name (Just ask Ilkeston last season). He has kept us in the Championship following Jewell nightmare rein (that is my opinion) when many have and still keep stating we are getting relegated. He delegates the academy to his backroom staff who are producing some fine players and earning a very good reputation and by all accounts he keeps a look over the academy. As you like facts of all the managers you have mentioned how many have set up an academy base where so many home grown players has been produced at one time into the 1st team and holding their own. None of the managers I can think off have relied or placed trust into home grown players. Most of Them I believe either inherited a premiership squad (di matteo for one) or was able to fund players into the team. (this is my opinion) Stop trying to pass of your opinion as fact. Erm the only facts I've written were that Mourinho is a better manager than Clough and that PBs best achievements are better than NCs best achievements.. Both are facts, denying them would be ludicrous and I'd call the mental institute immediately to make an appointment for you if you think otherwise.. Also your delutional clutching at straws (Yes Ian Dowie, Aidy Boothroyd, Nigel Worthington, Ian Holloway, Phil Brown etc. all inherited PL squads) is laughable.. And to top it off you go on about our academy.. Like we've got an academy of Ajaxs standard.. And please share all these incredible gems (ie. top 6 NPC standard or PL standard) that NC has brought through the academy as I'm struggling to think of any.. I love your optimism Rotherham.. Are you as passionate for life in general as you are about DCFC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Erm the only facts I've written were that Mourinho is a better manager than Clough and that PBs best achievements are better than NCs best achievements.. Both are facts, denying them would be ludicrous and I'd call the mental institute immediately to make an appointment for you if you think otherwise.. Also your delutional clutching at straws (Yes Ian Dowie, Aidy Boothroyd, Nigel Worthington, Ian Holloway, Phil Brown etc. all inherited PL squads) is laughable.. And to top it off you go on about our academy.. Like we've got an academy of Ajaxs standard.. And please share all these incredible gems (ie. top 6 NPC standard or PL standard) that NC has brought through the academy as I'm struggling to think of any.. I love your optimism Rotherham.. Are you as passionate for life in general as you are about DCFC? Out of the list of managers you mention only one kept their job. Ian Dowie has done nothing since that promotion season, Aidy Boothroyd the same and both sacked from Coventry - Coventry what have they done since relegation. Worthington got Norwich promoted relegated sacked the year after and went to Northern Ireland and turned them from a side under Sanchez who nearly qualified to European or World championship to a team in free fall. Holloway is only one I would say has achieved more than the others as he has turned Blackpool into a club well respected for football. Coventry, Norwich and Watford have all previously played in top flight football but cocked up like us. In respect of Academy if you watch games you will see that OB, Hendrick, Ball, Bennett to name 4 are very promosing and have more than held their own when played. They are only just starting out and the experience gained now will hold them in good stead. We had no academy till he came and our academy would certainly not beaten Arsenal and I think they have also beaten Liverpool and Sunderland recently. You just seem to love Clough bashing, Derby bashing, player bashing infact knocking everything about the club and enjoy arguing. I am quite happy to argue has I don't have blinkers on caused by plain stubborness to accept that things are changing. I will agree not quick enough but things are changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I didn't say they I'd rather have them over Clough nor did I say they could do a better job than NC is doing, the same as I can't say Roy McFarland could do a better job now than Jason Shackell.. But NC hasn't reached their heights therefore he hasn't achieved what they have.. If they all were to retire now, Cloughs finest moment would be 14th in the NPC, therefore below the others.. But if you're honestly trying to say Clough has achieved more in his managerial career than Aidy Boothroyd, Nigel Wothington, Phil Brown, Ian Holloway and Ian Dowie then you've got serious delusional mental problems.. And I'd genuinely feel sorry for you On to the other post, I'm interested to know who you think has had the better international career.. David Beckham or Theo Zagorakis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Ok then Bris how about Paul Ince he managed in the premiership does this make him better than Clough on your basis. Steve Keane. Mick Macarthy is a hard one I imagine as he did get Wolves up but also managed Sunderland to the title of worst prem team until we took it off him. In respect of the question of Beckham Zagorakis. I should imagine on how you judge things it will be Zagorakis as he won a European Championship. However after watching that tournament it was the most boring and non-attacking tournament I have ever watched. As with Denmark I think early 90's or late 80's the underdogs won the tournament. What have they done since or before. Not many international class players come from Greece. Beckham most capped England player where there are countless international class player scored more goals than Zagorakis, played in more tournaments, is internationally known for his abilities and due to this has been one of the most sought players across the world. Until you mentioned his name could not tell you who Zagorakis was but if you went to Greece and you asked who Beckahm was they would laugh at you for asking a soft question. Therefore it has to Beckham just becuase he did not win a title makes his achievement any less. He can say he captained his country a well known footballing country and scored the vital goal I think against Greece to get us to Japan world cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Paul Ince and Steve Kean haven't won a promotion and have so far been failures in the Prem.. They're irrelevant.. Nothing like the other names that I mentoned.. As for Beckham, he's well known around the world for what he did at club level..No one is denying that.. But to say he or any other England player has had a more successful international career than Theo Zagorakis in the past 20 years then they're simply talking nonsense.. Zagorakis captained Greece and won a major tournament therefore he's had more success at International level... No matter how you dress it up, Zagorakis has the championship medal, Beckham doesn't.. Just like Phil Brown has had more success than NC in his managerial career. PB has on his CV (promotion to the PL + survival) NC boasts (1st place in th Conf + 14th in the NPC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 You talk/type such crap (in my opinion). Know you prob think the same about me but honestly you don't come on here for a couple of days and you just come out with some unbelievable comments and statements. You seek attention and because of the the daftness of the comments people respond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 You talk/type such crap (in my opinion). Know you prob think the same about me but honestly you don't come on here for a couple of days and you just come out with some unbelievable comments and statements. You seek attention and because of the the daftness of the comments people respond We share the same opinion Rotherham. Although Bris has proven one fact in that Clough must be one of the best managers in the world as he has yet to suffer relegation. Using his theory, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 We share the same opinion Rotherham. Although Bris has proven one fact in that Clough must be one of the best managers in the world as he has yet to suffer relegation. Using his theory, that is. Now don't be silly mcsilks that doesn't make sense.. In the championship promotion is the aim, not avoiding relegation.. Clutch a little tighter at those straws you're losing your grip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackNwhites Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 http://www.gotatalent.com/pictures/WIN0Lq1jJwkxGiqN98xxEZyQ0K0KL8hf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Clough out, Brown in Board out, Sleightholme, Keith, Mackay in. Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 didnt ince lead mk to promotion? or did he leave before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Phil Brown, Gary Megson, Billy Davies, Nigel Worthington, George Burley, Aidy Boothroyd, Dave Jones, Roberto Di Matteo, Ian Holloway, Steve Coppell, Alan Curbishly, Ian Dowie, Roy Keane and many more all have something in common.. They all have a promotion to the PL Therefore, until NC has this, he will not be as good a manager as any of the names above mentioned.. He might be better now in this moment, but the same could be said of S.Davies being better than Kevin Hector.. Point is, unless Clough becomes a PL manager or that level, he will never be regarded as better than those above.. Win percentage or not, Phil Browns achievements far outweighs Nigel Cloughs achievements.. And before anyone tries to defy this logic, the same could be said for a 100m sprint.. One athlete could average 10.4 seconds over his career but never break 10 seconds whilst another averages 19.6 seconds but just once gets 9.96.. Who is the faster (better) runner? Facts are facts, so far Clough hasn't reached Phil Browns potenial therefore PB is the better manager.. Hopefully that will change though.. You have changed your arguement. You are now saying NC hasn't achieved as much as the above managers. Before you were saying NC can't be as good until he has achieved Premier League promotion. With regard to Phil Brown in particular any balanced person would come to a judgement after looking at both the highs and the lows on a persons CV. Nigels career graph, although a bit slow, is still on the up. Phil Brown, just sacked from league one Preston is on the way down. Does the high point outweigh the lows? ................... That is subject to opinion.......NOT FACT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rams71 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Beckham most capped England player er no he isn't, i think you'll find Shilton won more caps than Beckham just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 You have changed your arguement. You are now saying NC hasn't achieved as much as the above managers. Before you were saying NC can't be as good until he has achieved Premier League promotion. With regard to Phil Brown in particular any balanced person would come to a judgement after looking at both the highs and the lows on a persons CV. Nigels career graph, although a bit slow, is still on the up. Phil Brown, just sacked from league one Preston is on the way down. Does the high point outweigh the lows? ................... That is subject to opinion.......NOT FACT!! The opinion of Bris Vegas is fact. Don't you get it !? Balanced viewpoints? You can't possibly look at a managers lows. That wouldn't support his argument. Don't be silly. Anyway, I have mentioned his user name again so have thus satisfied his ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CumbrianRam Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 er no he isn't, i think you'll find Shilton won more caps than Beckham just saying And I'm feckin glad he is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorneoRam Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Using internatonal footall is the worst for clutching at staws... That is completely different gifted players like Giggs, Berbatov, Best, Poom etc.. Would never have had the chance to play at a world cup.. Phil Browns best achievement (promotion + survival in the PL) far outweighs 1st place in the Conf + 14th in the NPC... PB has achieved more, that's a fact.. Therefore the best of PB > The best of NC = PB better manager.. (it can only change if NC achieves more) I apologise wholeheartedly, I simply extended your logic to the international arena - given that it is not in fact logical you cannot blame me for making an error with the BV algorithm for defining who is better - I did not realise that you took into account the fact that the team international players represented had an effect on their achievements as you clearly ignore this fact when assessing managers. I'm also sorry for misunderstanding your current evaluation of PB vs NC - I thought you were saying that you did not want PB back but from this you are saying categorically that he is a better manager so I am assuming you do - why don't you start a thread campaigning for his return now that he is available and see how far you get. Seriously Bris I am fairly new to this so want to assume that you are just trying to wind people up by stubbornly sticking to this method of judging people by their career highlight rather than their whole career and taking no account of other factors (like the fact they did it at different clubs in different circumstances) but, keeping Nigel Clough out of it, this means you are saying Iain Dowie is a better manager that say Ian Adkins, Wes Brown is a better player than Steven Gerrard and Carlo Ancelotti is at least as good if not better manager than Brian Clough. No issue with anyone having an opinion on who would be a better option that Clough but this whole method of measurement and the subsequent shouting down of any critique belongs in the playground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 er no he isn't, i think you'll find Shilton won more caps than Beckham just saying Ok most capped outfield player knew it was one of the two. No mean feat tho still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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