Obi1Kenobi0 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 All depends on which team can get back into the Prem first and crucially stay there for at least 2-3 seasons to reap the financial reward and build a squad capable of staying in that league. Whichever team can do that is likely to dominate the other for quite some time. However, I don't believe we will both do it at the same time. Forest have come closer than us the last two seasons but this next one I can see it being a lot closer between us and they know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 unfortunately he can bankroll them he sold umbro for an estimated 520 million to nike. So his fortune is pretty vast and he can keep doing it. Nope http://www.thisisbusiness-eastmidlands.co.uk/news/Forest-chairman-featured-Sunday-Times-Rich-List/article-3533484-detail/article.html You're confusing Doughty with Doughty Hanson. While Doughty is CEO he only retains a % stake in the business (c£125m). Any one of Mallet, Ricketts or Wilson make Doughty look like a pauper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 ahhh fair enough my mistake well yes but they aren't willing to back us like doughty unfortunately, so his wealth is 130 million hmmmm calling in the debts soon i hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Depends on how you define 'back' - thus far, our owners have been paying off our losses every year, whilst not deeming it as a loan, and not loading on interest. Meanwhile Doughty's placing Forest in more debt, and loading the interest on top. Plus, our owners have ensured that we're on the verge of becoming a sustainable business. We own Pride Park (albeit through mortgage), we own Moor Farm, and we'll be sustainable. Pretty healthy. Forest on the other hand, don't own the ground, are indebted to Doughty up to the eyeballs, and are nowhere near being sustainable, and by the looks of it, Doughty's taken few steps to make them so other than to curb R2D2's spending, but even that's just turning down the tap, not turning it off, or better still, pulling the plug out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 unfortunately he can bankroll them he sold umbro for an estimated 520 million to nike. So his fortune is pretty vast and he can keep doing it. What your worth is only a piece of paper, what you are prepared to spend to spend on a football club is different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky Tree Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 What sort of sad act spends their time looking at and posting on there local rivals football team forum?! Jesus man........ Get a life!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 What sort of sad act spends their time looking at and posting on there local rivals football team forum?! Jesus man........ Get a life!!!!! Weirdos! Oh Sorry haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramalama Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Depends on how you define 'back' - thus far, our owners have been paying off our losses every year, whilst not deeming it as a loan, and not loading on interest. Meanwhile Doughty's placing Forest in more debt, and loading the interest on top. Plus, our owners have ensured that we're on the verge of becoming a sustainable business. We own Pride Park (albeit through mortgage), we own Moor Farm, and we'll be sustainable. Pretty healthy. Forest on the other hand, don't own the ground, are indebted to Doughty up to the eyeballs, and are nowhere near being sustainable, and by the looks of it, Doughty's taken few steps to make them so other than to curb R2D2's spending, but even that's just turning down the tap, not turning it off, or better still, pulling the plug out. You don't seem concerned that GSE are doing the same thing to us? We're not on the verge of becoming a sustainable business, we're in the process of incresing the wage bill again. I've slagged them off in the past for not investing, so I'm glad they are putting money into the playing staff at long last (although I don't think Nigel's targets are the right ones to take us forward, but that's a different argument). By the way, all these fans who have been on here banging on about sustainability, lowering the wage bill and living within our means for the last year, why aren't you currently protesting outside PPS now that GSE are in danger of turning us into 'the next Portsmouth'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 It must be tough for Forest fans to see their former hero Nigel at the helm at Derby. The worst thing about losing to them last season was Billy was in charge. I wanted Forest to fail with Davies there, but with McClaren it would be great to see them go up-as long as we do, and even along with Leeds or Leicester. I'm from West Midlands and was well jealous last season that Stoke, Wolves, WBA, Brum and Villa were all together in the top flight. The more Midlands teams (plus Leeds) in the top flight the better. All similar size clubs, all with their moments of history, all with passionate fans and all mostly left behind in the Premiership boom years. Another thing in common is that most of them seem to be well run financially. Let's hope the era on financial fair play brings the good times back to our area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpman Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I don't think we are obsessed with each other, i just think that we are part of a 'Derby' just like WBA and Wolves or Sheff utd and Wendys. We need to score points off each other and get the upper hand so we have bragging rights. I live in the gun city and my bessie is a florist fan, but we manage to keep it together execpt on match days when we don't talk to each other until we have calmed down Being part of a 'Derby' is special, i feel sorry for fester as they don't have one which is why they keep trying to create one with both us and florist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky Tree Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 All this talk of doughty makes me laugh; in over 10 years he has invested 60 million whereas in only 2 and a half years, the derby county board have had to invest over 24 million! Yes we are greatful to doughty but for derby fans to be the high and mighty when they have relied on similar if not greater investment from their owners is beyond belief. And yes doughty has been clever and put it all in the form of loans which he puts back the repayment date of each year but dont pretend for one minute that the derby board wont demand the 24 million invest back. If anything, id say they will demand this money back before doughty does. Difference being they will probably get the money back through asset stripping. So when you think about it, both clubs rely heavily on their owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 It's line 1 of any business manual that if you invest in any company then you do so via the form of a loan - otherwise you can't get your money back out other than by a sale of the business. It isn't really that clever a thing to think up. I have done it myself (not on nearly so momentous a scale) - and lost. Hey ho. The thing i find interesting in the terminology used is "invest"....its a word that conjures up some sort of expectation of a return. Given Derbys ill-fated experience in the prem - in terms of how easy it is for £ms to evaporate in contracts, expenses and fees, it presumably approaches the point at which ND cannot realistically look forward to ALL of his money back (if we accept that the interest he's charged gives him his "yield"). Therefore, it starts to look less and less like an investment. As time goes by of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramalama Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I hate to stick up for the dirty stinking scumbags, but isn't it less likely that Dour-ty will want or expect his money back than a group of businessmen who had probably never heard of us before they were approached to invest in us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 You don't seem concerned that GSE are doing the same thing to us? We're not on the verge of becoming a sustainable business, we're in the process of incresing the wage bill again. I've slagged them off in the past for not investing, so I'm glad they are putting money into the playing staff at long last (although I don't think Nigel's targets are the right ones to take us forward, but that's a different argument). By the way, all these fans who have been on here banging on about sustainability, lowering the wage bill and living within our means for the last year, why aren't you currently protesting outside PPS now that GSE are in danger of turning us into 'the next Portsmouth'? No, I'm not concerned with that at all. Are GSE charging us interest on any investment that they've put into the club? Is that shown in the accounts? Regarding the wagebill, we made a £2m loss for the 2009/2010 season - which included Hulse's wages, Commons' wages, Savages' wages etc. They've all gone. We're also looking to offload Bywater and Varney at least, and most likely Leacock and Pearson if we can. Suffice to say, the players coming in now, aren't going to be coming in on the wages at that level. Hence, we'll be in a better position now than we were then, and we only made a small loss then. If that's not heading towards sustainability, I don't know what is. Sustainability's been the keyword for the past few years - if anything they've gone overboard on it - putting our CCC status at risk. Luckily, their gamble worked, and we stayed up. I read yesterday that a third of all clubs in the FL spend over 100% of their annual turnover on player wages. We don't. Forest do. The last paragraph is irrelevant given that you were wrong about everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramalama Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Thankyou for arguing with me about things I never said. Where did I say GSE were charging us interest? I said they were more likely to want their investment back than Doughty. I never said it was at the level it was two years ago, I said it is rising again. We've currently got rid of Savage and signed 5 players, do you think their wages add up to less than Savages? Seeing as you're wrong about everything else I assume my last paragraph is still relevant, and you'll be one of the placard bearers outside PPS complaining about signing players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Back on topic - As a non-resident of Derby I am slightly removed from the intensity of the Derby-Forest hate fest but I will throw in my six pennorth' anyway. When Forest got promoted in 77 and went on to win the league under Clough in 78 it was with Archie Gemmill, John McGovern and John O'Hare as the heartbeat of the team. These were, of course, Clough's men from the the Derby title winning team of 71/72. Without these ex Derby players and the ex Derby management team of Clough and Taylor, Forest would never have had any "glory years". Their 79 and 80 euro cup wins would never have happened without the Derby connection. As the reddogs gloated we would remind them that it was just Derby being kind to our unfortunate neighbours that had allowed them to briefly (in the two clubs history's), be in the ascendency. They've never forgave us for that. Somehow it irks them that the greatest period their club has ever had was thanks to a management team that loved Derby more than they did Forest, and players who joined them when they would have preferred to have stayed at Derby if the circumstances had allowed. Its a bitter pill for the forest lads to take. Its a long time a go now, but for some reason its hit a nerve with a different generation that one of their best ever players, Nigel Clough, manages Derby. At first they just assumed that he would fail and DCFC fans would turn against him. Some older heads, I believe, were genuinely worried that Nigel would want to carry on his Dad's true legacy and put Derby where they historically belong, i.e, above forest both in terms of league position but also as a far bigger part of football history. Is Nigel driven to fulfill his Dad's passion for DCFC, to make them the best football team in the land without having to resort to the dirty leeds type tactics? Who knows? Last season, when I witnessed Clough ushering the team off the bus, 500 yards from Elland Road, and marching them to the ground through loads of Leeds fans, I knew then that he has some personal issues to attend to. If one of them is making Derby County great again, because deep down, he knows his dad would have wanted that, then I 'm with him for the journey. Jeez, can you imagine if it comes off. You would'nt be able to get a ticket at Pride Park for love nor money. Can you really blame the forest boys for hating us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky Tree Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Somehow it irks them that the greatest period their club has ever had was thanks to a management team that loved Derby more than they did Forest, and players who joined them when they would have preferred to have stayed at Derby if the circumstances had allowed. And i feel it irks the derby fans even more that the greatest period in nottingham forests history should have and arguably would have been derbys if your board hadnt forced the manager and players out Personally i dont feel forest fans really care that brian loved derby more (well i dont anyway); he achieved more at forest and it is his achievements at forest that he is renowned for and that for me is the be all and end all. Either way, brian clough is a legend down both ends of the A52. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Thankyou for arguing with me about things I never said. Where did I say GSE were charging us interest? I said they were more likely to want their investment back than Doughty. I never said it was at the level it was two years ago, I said it is rising again. We've currently got rid of Savage and signed 5 players, do you think their wages add up to less than Savages? Seeing as you're wrong about everything else I assume my last paragraph is still relevant, and you'll be one of the placard bearers outside PPS complaining about signing players. If your statement is so easily misconstrued, then perhaps you should think about being clearer in future. The investment by our owners is aligned to the future sale of the club. They've said that all along, which is why there's nothing even remotely related to loans in the accounts, unlike Forest. As for the wagebill, we were £2m short at the end of 2009/2010, and the wagebill has been further reduced. Significantly reduced through the offloading of high earning players. Is it rising again? It'll rise to a degree yes, but not to the point of exceeding our total turnover, again unlike Forest. No, your final paragraph is still 8ollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 brian clough is a legend down both ends of the A52. There ain't no arguing with that is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.shilton Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 jeez you guys are obsessed Who gave you a like? No-one likes Forest, even their "fans":rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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