Academy thread 23/24

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

I think it's great they was there last night, especially the night before the first team have an away game too. I don't think this would have happened before "the talk" that sunny Sunday morning at Clowes pad though.

But, it's all good and well them sat in the stands, we need to see more action on the training pitch and appearances as a first team player. 

You don't produce Bellingham players by them playing U21's and below. 

Completely agree, most first team managers attend youth cup games due to the prestige of the competition. It’s why all clubs play the players who are eligible regardless of where they are in their development. 
 

What I would add is that of the current u18s only Brown is anywhere close to the first team in league competition the rest are at least the end of next season away. Most of the u21s are at least a season away too. Of them only Robinson, Bardell, Weston and Evans are anywhere close but I don’t expect any of them to be playing in the league much this year either and that’s part of the problem.

Only Evans of those has a deal beyond this season and of the others don’t get games I can’t see them resigning, except maybe Bardell and even Evans will probably be quietly looking for a move if he isn’t anywhere near playing first team minutes after this summer. We have to remember that the players owe the club nothing really, unless they’re fans which I don’t think any outside of Bardell maybe, they have to put their careers first because no path means no career.

Now it may be argued that so what we have others coming up behind but in reality we don’t, at a push maybe Hawkins and Wheeldon who have played at u21s last season and McAndrew and Allen if they keep developing at the rate they are but outside those 4 none of the u18s are close to ready so that means more money needed to fill the first team with “peak players” and more players who could have contributed lost to other clubs. 
 

On the other side of that coin Warne is under pressure to take us up this season and as such for him to gamble on youth is a gamble with his own job and potentially his career. If he doesn’t take us up how many fans would say “that’s ok, give him another year as he has been developing our academy players this season…”?

Probably not many. 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Jram said:

It’s always been my biggest gripe with Warne. If we’re not giving the academy lads a chance in this league, we’re hardly likely to risk them against better sides in the championship 

Perhaps we’ve been spoilt the last few years with 5-10 academy players debuting every season. It started the Lampard season tbf when he gave Bogle and Bird a proper go. 
 

Have we ever had 5-10 debuting every season?

Lampard gave more Derby County debuts to other teams academy products than he did ours. Bird got only 2 starts and 6 sub appearances. Max Lowe got one game and was then shipped off to Scotland, despite having been very impressive in pre-season. Jaydon Mitchell-Lawson got one brief subs appearance. He did stick faithfully with Bogle of course, but Cocu gave more debuts to academy players.

[TheHomunculusLives]

57 minutes ago, ExiledinDerby said:

Completely agree, most first team managers attend youth cup games due to the prestige of the competition. It’s why all clubs play the players who are eligible regardless of where they are in their development. 
 

What I would add is that of the current u18s only Brown is anywhere close to the first team in league competition the rest are at least the end of next season away. Most of the u21s are at least a season away too. Of them only Robinson, Bardell, Weston and Evans are anywhere close but I don’t expect any of them to be playing in the league much this year either and that’s part of the problem.

Only Evans of those has a deal beyond this season and of the others don’t get games I can’t see them resigning, except maybe Bardell and even Evans will probably be quietly looking for a move if he isn’t anywhere near playing first team minutes after this summer. We have to remember that the players owe the club nothing really, unless they’re fans which I don’t think any outside of Bardell maybe, they have to put their careers first because no path means no career.

Now it may be argued that so what we have others coming up behind but in reality we don’t, at a push maybe Hawkins and Wheeldon who have played at u21s last season and McAndrew and Allen if they keep developing at the rate they are but outside those 4 none of the u18s are close to ready so that means more money needed to fill the first team with “peak players” and more players who could have contributed lost to other clubs. 
 

On the other side of that coin Warne is under pressure to take us up this season and as such for him to gamble on youth is a gamble with his own job and potentially his career. If he doesn’t take us up how many fans would say “that’s ok, give him another year as he has been developing our academy players this season…”?

Probably not many. 

Fapetu? He looked pretty good in the Wolves game, albeit against weak opposition. Ben Radcliffe?

Edited November 28, 2023 by TheHomunculusLives

[Ghost of Clough]

13 minutes ago, TheHomunculusLives said:

Fapetu? He looked pretty good in the Wolves game, albeit against weak opposition. Ben Radcliffe?

I take @ExiledinDerby's comments on "close to the first team" as being regular starter in L1 standard - anywhere from Bolton/Portsmouth down to Cheltenham/Exeter (which overlaps with the best of L2). When categorised as such, I would only include DRobinson and Weston as being "close", whilst some others would be 'close to being close'.
Some may take a couple of years playing through the levels before they are ready for the first team, others may just need a short non-league loan. I think DBrown is more likely to fall into that 2nd group than anyone else.

[Magicman]

Be nice to see Weston & JJ on our bench tonight. 

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, Magicman said:

Be nice to see Weston & JJ on our bench tonight. 

Dont think you’ll get Weston, with Waghorn, Collins and JJ I doubt there’s room unfortunately for another in the squad. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I take @ExiledinDerby's comments on "close to the first team" as being regular starter in L1 standard - anywhere from Bolton/Portsmouth down to Cheltenham/Exeter (which overlaps with the best of L2). When categorised as such, I would only include DRobinson and Weston as being "close", whilst some others would be 'close to being close'.
Some may take a couple of years playing through the levels before they are ready for the first team, others may just need a short non-league loan. I think DBrown is more likely to fall into that 2nd group than anyone else.

That’s exactly what I meant but I see I have made @Banksy laugh for some reason? I’m starting to think it’s personal now? Was I not fawning enough about something? Did I dare to criticise something? 
 

Because for me anyone who thinks any of the u18s or u21s who are ready to play regularly in League 1 at the minute is foolish. 

[RoyMac5]

36 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I take @ExiledinDerby's comments on "close to the first team" as being regular starter in L1 standard - anywhere from Bolton/Portsmouth down to Cheltenham/Exeter (which overlaps with the best of L2). When categorised as such, I would only include DRobinson and Weston as being "close", whilst some others would be 'close to being close'.
Some may take a couple of years playing through the levels before they are ready for the first team, others may just need a short non-league loan. I think DBrown is more likely to fall into that 2nd group than anyone else.

I wonder, because there's one or two I'd give a go to, would you have started Bogle or Buchanan? How much of it is down to that final step? I think Fapetu looked as 'interesting' as Fornah does, how close is either of them? This isn't a dig but just curiosity. Do we not find out now because we don't need to.

[Banksy]

7 minutes ago, ExiledinDerby said:

That’s exactly what I meant but I see I have made @Banksy laugh for some reason? I’m starting to think it’s personal now? Was I not fawning enough about something? Did I dare to criticise something? 
 

Because for me anyone who thinks any of the u18s or u21s who are ready to play regularly in League 1 at the minute is foolish. 

Neither do I with the exception of Brown and Weston. I just couldn't take seriously your expectations of some of the others.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Banksy said:

Neither do I with the exception of Brown and Weston. I just couldn't take seriously your expectations of some of the others.

Who do you disagree with then? It’s about opinions let’s have yours and we can debate them?

[ramsdale]

5 hours ago, ExiledinDerby said:

For me those 4 are the key u18 players. They are the best in that age group and I’d expect them to be the ones who make a real impact on the u21 side this season. Hawkins and Brown already have games under their belt of course and Allen and McAndrew are the best 2 out of all the first year scholars by far and both playing and performing well internationally is another bonus. 

You should watch alot of the 18s games there is some other good players if not better than who you named none of the other kids get mentioned like johnson he as got plenty of talent but coming back from injury and as for international they try and take every kid in the age group its just so that they have ties to that nation  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ramsdale said:

You should watch alot of the 18s games there is some other good players if not better than who you named none of the other kids get mentioned like johnson he as got plenty of talent but coming back from injury and as for international they try and take every kid in the age group its just so that they have ties to that nation  

I watch a lot of u18 and u21 games. I mention those two as they have been excelling at both club and country. I agree with Johnson who is indeed showing promise. Also I agree with the international teams taking players for players sake. I have posted previously that players who play schoolboy international don’t even go on to be playing at a professional level at 21 and I’ve tried to be a voice of reason for that and to stop people getting carried away because someone played for England u15s twice..

As I said it’s about opinions and in my opinion they are the players I’m most excited about at present and the ones who will play a lot of u21 football this season.

 

Please see that I say at present above because playing well at u18 and u21 doesn’t mean they will be the ones who go on to be superstars. Take Alfie Roberts who was feted as the next big thing now at Belper Town and he isn’t the only one. Let them develop away from the spotlight and at their own pace, let them make their mistakes and let’s see who can keep making the step up each time. 

Again someone mentioned Fapetu and IMO whilst he was great against Wolves he has struggled at u21 level this year as he found his feet. I also argued Brown wasn’t ready yet and I think that has been discussed since too.

Im not saying I’m right I’m simply giving my opinion. 

[Guest]

I missed Dan Cox out too. He is a quality player and has made the move to u21 seamlessly. 

[Magicman]

1 hour ago, ExiledinDerby said:

I missed Dan Cox out too. He is a quality player and has made the move to u21 seamlessly. 

Will be ready to step in for fozzy next year. 

[Banksy]

8 hours ago, ExiledinDerby said:

 

I missed Dan Cox out too. He is a quality player and has made the move to u21 seamlessly. 

 

I agree with that. I think the same about Jack Thompson too. Did you miss him out or does it not apply to him?

[Jram]

18 hours ago, Crewton said:

Have we ever had 5-10 debuting every season?

Lampard gave more Derby County debuts to other teams academy products than he did ours. Bird got only 2 starts and 6 sub appearances. Max Lowe got one game and was then shipped off to Scotland, despite having been very impressive in pre-season. Jaydon Mitchell-Lawson got one brief subs appearance. He did stick faithfully with Bogle of course, but Cocu gave more debuts to academy players.

I meant in terms of that being the start of the academy really being used. It wasn’t until Rooney/Rosenior where we were giving 5-10 debuts a season. More out of necessity though, I suppose.

 

It definitely shows that we should use it more that so many that we blooded very early have gone on to be key players here or elsewhere 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Jram said:

I meant in terms of that being the start of the academy really being used. It wasn’t until Rooney/Rosenior where we were giving 5-10 debuts a season. More out of necessity though, I suppose.

 

It definitely shows that we should use it more that so many that we blooded very early have gone on to be key players here or elsewhere 

Agree should be used more but Warne is under too much pressure to go up this year and won’t gamble on youth but then if we do go up the pressure will be to stay up and again he or whoever won’t gamble again…

It‘a not right but fan pressure all adds to it. I think if we stay in L1 this year (sorry to be a downer but it may happen..) then I think budgets will be so tight that we will see increased use of academy players. 

[Ram@Lincoln]

For me, this is the time now before the January window opens to put some of the better ones on the bench every game in December. Give them ten minutes here and there to see if they can handle it in the first team. If they can, it relieves pressure in January over recruitment and we can focus on what's really needed to strengthen the team. I wouldn't want to bloat the squad of senior players who might be blocking the pathway of the younger boys who might be good enough - just unable to show it due to lack of chances.

[angieram]

It will be interesting to see what the lineup is on Tuesday against Fleetwood. 

[Comrade 86]

21 minutes ago, angieram said:

It will be interesting to see what the lineup is on Tuesday against Fleetwood. 

60 minutes for TJJ? It's occurred to me that he and Dajaune are pretty much like for like which will likely lead to further angst. I feel like we definitely have some youth worth looking at, but the clammer to start academy products outside of the cup games I don't really get, especially when we appear to be on a roll right now. Hopefully we get a few more games where Warne feels safe enough to give them some minutes, if not starts.