The Ukraine War

[Ram-Alf]

S.O.E. 😉

https://news.sky.com/story/how-the-covert-ukrainian-resistance-movement-is-operating-behind-russian-lines-13202230

[ramit]

You will not want to hear this, so here it is

 

[ramit]

Apologies for the rude intro to the video

[Crewton]

Jeffrey Sachs is quite a case. People should check out his range of opinions. It's all there : China advocacy, including denial of oppression of the Uighur people, defence of Huawei and Chinese foreign policy. Russia advocacy over the Ukraine War and Nordstream explosion, support for Assad in Syria - he absolutely adores Dictators who oppress their own people. Human rights he ain't so big on.

 

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, ramit said:

You will not want to hear this, so here it is

 

Why would posters not want to hear this, We're not all Hawkes or ultra right wing conservatives, I agree with what Sachs says, A lot of the worlds problems can be pointed at the USA, NATOs expansion(USA) was an issue, Threats to the east saying if you want protection from the danger of Russia come on down and join us, Closer and closer NATO moves east, Russia is getting a little agitated, This is all out there even before your post @ramit, Fools we're not, Wet behind the ears we're not.

But now here's the rub, Ukraine and a huge proportion of the Ukrainian people wanted the freedoms of the west without the influence of Russia, Unfortunately they wanted to join the EU, Putin saw this as the last straw and attacked in February 2022...why?

Ukraine didn't to my knowledge attack Russia, But Russia decided to attack Ukraine, The rest is history, Where now both the USA/UK are talking about giving Ukraine permission to use long range missiles, It's a proxy war that the west didn't see but a war that the USA led Hawkes did...I don't see an end to this...do you?

PS...WW1 was started in the 1870s with the Franco/German war, Then it became an arms race in the early 1900s, The Kiel canal was enlarged so Germany could move their Dreadnaughts quicker to the north sea, Germany wanted what other colonial countries had their share of Africa and a "place in the Sun" Serbia was the catalyst...not a USA Hawk in sight.

We could go back and forth for an eternity on this, The USA believe in the $, While Russia fear freedom for it's people.

Hawkes=Oligarchs 👍  

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

Why would posters not want to hear this, We're not all Hawkes or ultra right wing conservatives, I agree with what Sachs says, A lot of the worlds problems can be pointed at the USA, NATOs expansion(USA) was an issue, Threats to the east saying if you want protection from the danger of Russia come on down and join us, Closer and closer NATO moves east, Russia is getting a little agitated, This is all out there even before your post @ramit, Fools we're not, Wet behind the ears we're not.

But now here's the rub, Ukraine and a huge proportion of the Ukrainian people wanted the freedoms of the west without the influence of Russia, Unfortunately they wanted to join the EU, Putin saw this as the last straw and attacked in February 2022...why?

Ukraine didn't to my knowledge attack Russia, But Russia decided to attack Ukraine, The rest is history, Where now both the USA/UK are talking about giving Ukraine permission to use long range missiles, It's a proxy war that the west didn't see but a war that the USA led Hawkes did...I don't see an end to this...do you?

PS...WW1 was started in the 1870s with the Franco/German war, Then it became an arms race in the early 1900s, The Kiel canal was enlarged so Germany could move their Dreadnaughts quicker to the north sea, Germany wanted what other colonial countries had their share of Africa and a "place in the Sun" Serbia was the catalyst...not a USA Hawk in sight.

We could go back and forth for an eternity on this, The USA believe in the $, While Russia fear freedom for it's people.

Hawkes=Oligarchs 👍  

Russia considers NATO an existential threat, that's their motivation, creating a buffer.

The huge proportion you mention was still the minority, as election results showed.  Freedom you say, okay, I think even the Americans have mostly stopped using that word.

I really don't see a way out of this mess and feel even stronger than before the danger of escalation.  Russia claims that long range missiles capable of striking deep into Russia proper would make the western powers direct participants in the war.  If we had a working UN there would be some hope for a solution.  Who can mediate talks?  Finding a truly neutral country seems not doable.

Perhaps only the common people on both sides are the only force that can pressure the warring sides to negotiate, but that doesn't seem likely atm, as folks are dug in with opposite opinions fed to them by "their side"

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

I really don't see a way out of this mess and feel even stronger than before the danger of escalation.  Russia claims that long range missiles capable of striking deep into Russia proper would make the western powers direct participants in the war.  If we had a working UN there would be some hope for a solution.  Who can mediate talks?  Finding a truly neutral country seems not doable.

Equally Iran, N Korea et al feeding Russia with weapons, I see the Yemen sent a long range missile into Israel last week, The world is getting messier by the week.

In the end...imo, Ukraine will be forced by the west to give up land which will be "the buffer zone", Putin's not fussed on how many lives he loses, The west wont send their forces to support Ukraine...the stalemate will have to be broken at some time...it's who's going to blink 1st. 

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, ramit said:

The huge proportion you mention was still the minority, as election results showed. 

This IRI survey from March 2014 indicated that those who would definitely vote YES in a referendum to join the EU was  53% (as per Brexit OUT vote). Interestingly, only a minority were in favour of joining NATO, though a majority preferred economic relations with the EU over Russia.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/201420April20520IRI20Public20Opinion20Survey20of20Ukraine2C20March2014-262C202014.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjH8OWCoMeIAxXvW0EAHbXsKjsQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UNlKe6Q6OdaZ6R488eywL

I think those majorities in favour would be much bigger today. That's Putin's "victory" - he's turned a population that in general wanted friendly relations with Russia on an equal footing into a population that are desperate to be protected from Russian "brotherly relations".

Scaring Sweden and Finland into becoming NATO members is a staggering own goal too. Who among its neighbours would ever trust Russia again?

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Crewton