GboroRam Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: If we had the same squad we wouldn't be in this mess. As you are well aware I was not comparing Mac and Rooney, I was comparing the situation. The difficulty in keeping a 'poor' teams momentum going when they have moved away from potential relegation. But you are comparing Rooney and Cocu, who have similar squads available to them both. Haven't managed to truly improve on the situation. I don't see Rooney as making much improvement on what we had with Cocu. So why did we sack one at great expense in order to give the job to the other? In my opinion it was an experiment. It hasn't really worked the way the Lampard experiment worked. I don't think now is the time to change anything - we're almost safe so I'd hold off. With the state of the situation I don't see us an attractive proposition, so talk of Wilder might as well be talk of Guardiola. We're a struggling team with uncertain finances and the rump of an EFL case hanging over us, plus talk of a transfer umbongo. God knows what the future will bring. What aspiring manager would risk blotting his CV with a troubled stint with us right now? Next season will be a defining season for WR, and he will be given the opportunity to show he's capable of more than Cocu has achieved. So far I've not seen enough to make me think he can do it, but we're with Hobson's choice so we're likely to find out. Hopefully we won't start out next season in League 1, but it's not an impossibility. Wayne would certainly get his chance to learn like most managers, from a lower league ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Might I suggest if Cocu allowed himself to be pressured into playing Rooney then that wasn't at all professional! I don't believe that, he picked Rooney because as poorly as he played he was still one of the few players in our squad (chosen by Cocu) most likely to make something happen! It is a point that can be discussed endlessly. We simply don't know. We do know we had to use a special clause to afford Rooney. Who knows what was in the small print! The only thing we are certain of is that Rooney did not keep himself fit enough. That is on Rooney first. Rooney still picked himself for those 2 games under the group management. Then, once the manager job could be his, he finally realises he could offer more off the pitch! All feels off to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Martin Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 19 minutes ago, BondJovi said: It was, but I don't believe for the right reasons. Those first 11 games contained some better performances than most Rooney has served up the last 11 or so. Rooney has better options available to him. We had a player/coach who clearly wasn't up to it, did he have to play, we won't know. The speculation at the time was ridiculous and it all centered around him. Something had to give. It was Rooney or Cocu and we picked the one who wasn't setting a professional standard. We should never have allowed ourselves to get into such a mess. Rooney should have retired in the summer. We have used Rooney to sell the club. I can't help but feel we shafted Cocu and are leaving Rooney in the crap, crap that is partly of his own making. Agree with you in that Rooney has not really been a big improvement performance wise. However, it was necessary to sack Cocu to save the club from relegation. Even if it was just to get some results from a new manager bounce. Something big had to change, and just removing Rooney from the team wouldn't of been enough. Cocu's methods were flawed, and above all else nobody enjoyed them. I think after a season and 11 games into the next one is more than enough time to prove himself yet we didn't really see an improvement from his first game at the club to his last. How was anyone to know at the time that Rooney would or wouldn't be a success as manager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 28 minutes ago, GboroRam said: But you are comparing Rooney and Cocu, who have similar squads available to them both. Haven't managed to truly improve on the situation. I don't see Rooney as making much improvement on what we had with Cocu. So why did we sack one at great expense in order to give the job to the other? Because Cocu had us in the relegation zone - after being at the club for a reasonable period - and Rooney has taken us out of the relegation zone after a limited period and with less experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: Because Cocu had us in the relegation zone - after being at the club for a reasonable period - and Rooney has taken us out of the relegation zone after a limited period and with less experience. I think they've performed similarly. We were in trouble with Cocu as manager, we are in trouble now. The one difference is we're no longer fielding a fat, out of condition forward. I don't think we can safely say that Rooney has improved things sufficiently while we're in relegation trouble. We also can't say that we couldn't have picked up a handful of points and scraped up to 19th with 2 teams ready with games in hand to scramble above us if Cocu was still managing. It's all much of a muchness - certainly no clear gulf in performance. Changing the manager has had a minor influence on things at best, and I'd say swapping Rooney for Kazim has had far more positive influence on our position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, GboroRam said: The one difference is we're no longer fielding a fat, out of condition forward. I don't think we can safely say that Rooney has improved things sufficiently while we're in relegation trouble. Then Cocu has to wonder why on earth when the team was in trouble he kept picking him! So many unable to accept that Cocu thought he was the best option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Then Cocu has to wonder why on earth when the team was in trouble he kept picking him! So many unable to accept that Cocu thought he was the best option. Nobody knows why he kept picking Rooney. Even Rooney eventually accepted he shouldn't pick Rooney. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Just now, GboroRam said: Nobody knows why he kept picking Rooney. Even Rooney eventually accepted he shouldn't pick Rooney. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? No. The type of football Cocu preferred to play indicates he wanted to pick Rooney. Afterall if Hudds had resigned he'd probably have alternated those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean (hick) Saunders Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 41 minutes ago, GboroRam said: umbongo Thanks. Made me chuckle that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: No. The type of football Cocu preferred to play indicates he wanted to pick Rooney. Afterall if Hudds had resigned he'd probably have alternated those two. So you disagree that we don't know why an out of condition Rooney got picked, and you know for sure it was because Cocu preferred him over other options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 18 minutes ago, GboroRam said: So you disagree that we don't know why an out of condition Rooney got picked, and you know for sure it was because Cocu preferred him over other options? No I said I know why Rooney was picked, it was because Cocu preferred him. It may be that Cocu's choices were limited ie we couldn't even afford Hudds, but still the choice was his. He wanted the kind of midfield 'general' that Rooney or Hudds gave the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: No I said I know why Rooney was picked, it was because Cocu preferred him. It may be that Cocu's choices were limited ie we couldn't even afford Hudds, but still the choice was his. He wanted the kind of midfield 'general' that Rooney or Hudds gave the team. Well, you know more than I know about the goings-on and team selections. I don't profess to know details like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Just now, GboroRam said: Well, you know more than I know about the goings-on and team selections. I don't profess to know details like that. So you don't know that there was any other reason for Cocu picking Rooney than what we saw, ie he preferred him. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Just now, RoyMac5 said: So you don't know that there was any other reason for Cocu picking Rooney than what we saw, ie he preferred him. ? No, I have no idea why an unfit Rooney got in the team, when Rooney himself decided that he needed to be dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 4 minutes ago, GboroRam said: No, I have no idea why an unfit Rooney got in the team, when Rooney himself decided that he needed to be dropped. Fair enough. I assumed you were making an extrapolation. My extrapolation is the manager picks the team in most clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: Fair enough. I assumed you were making an extrapolation. My extrapolation is the manager picks the team in most clubs. Most clubs don't employ a celebrity player who is part funded by a sponsor. Speculation? Yes, guilty. But do you know for sure that the finances and deals underpinning Rooney the player? I would think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 It was actually denied by 'sources' that Rooney's contract stipulated that he must play every game for which he was available. However that's not the same thing as denying that there were large financial incentives for playing him / punishments for not playing him, which logically is far more likely to be the case. The short and long of it really is that both Cocu and Rooney have had the rug pulled out from under them in multiple ways be it incompetence of those above them or bad luck with injuries, neither has been able to deal with it. The difference is that I still don't actually see how Cocu was ever supposed to deal with the poo he had laid at his door and come out the other side - I don't think he was spurning any real opportunities to get results out of the squad whereas as I feel Rooney (especially with the players he was able to bring in / the squad he's had for the past 2-3 months) has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 28 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Most clubs don't employ a celebrity player who is part funded by a sponsor. Speculation? Yes, guilty. But do you know for sure that the finances and deals underpinning Rooney the player? I would think not. Neither do you. How many known examples have there been of players contracts that stipulate they have to play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: Neither do you. How many known examples have there been of players contracts that stipulate they have to play? How many players have been paid by an online casino? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Just now, GboroRam said: How many players have been paid by an online casino? I don't know, do you? More than one - 32Red are big sponsors. How many of those have stipulations they have to play do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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