Statue campaign for dropped black player

[RoyMac5]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53184615

Quote

A campaign is being launched to erect a statue of a footballer dropped by England when selectors found out he was black.

Picked in 1925, Jack Leslie would have been the first black player to play for England, 53 years before Viv Anderson.

 

[therealhantsram]

Makes you wonder how the selectors selected him in the first place if they had never seen him play! 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

Makes you wonder how the selectors selected him in the first place if they had never seen him play! 

If you read the (interesting) article it was suggested his name was put forward by his manager.

[Mostyn6]

8 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

Makes you wonder how the selectors selected him in the first place if they had never seen him play! 

Match of the Day was in text format in those days.

[Alph]

The manager put his name forward, called him into the office to tell him he had been selected and THEN they came to watch him play? 

Is that how it worked back then? 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

The manager put his name forward, called him into the office to tell him he had been selected and THEN they came to watch him play? 

Is that how it worked back then? 

What's wrong with that? But it's hardly the point is it, I'm sure it was the same for white players.

[Alph]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

What's wrong with that? But it's hardly the point is it, I'm sure it was the same for white players.

Woah, I never said anything was wrong with it. I just asked a question, man.

It just isn't like that now so I didn't know. I mean if a club manager gets to pick a player for England then I see the point.

However if a club manager decided to select a player for England and tell that player, then the England scouts came to see him and didn't want him...

then "but it's hardly the point is it"... I don't get the point, no. 

Cocu couldn't do that with Sibely. It's never been a thing as far as I know. Hence the question.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

It just isn't like that now so I didn't know. I mean if a club manager gets to pick a player for England then I see the point.

However if a club manager decided to select a player for England and tell that player, then the England scouts came to see him and didn't want him...

I imagine that managers recommending players for selection in 1925 wasn't unusual. His stats no doubt backed up his recommendation. 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

I imagine that managers recommending players for selection in 1925 wasn't unusual. His stats no doubt backed up his recommendation. 

Yeah but it says he told the player he'd been selected for England before scouts came to see him. 

The article says he was dropped when selectors found out he was black. How can he be dropped from something he isn't part of and I'm assuming he wasn't part of it because selectors didn't pick him. 

Surely in 1925 you didn't get selected for England by a club manager saying "my lad should play for England" 

A recommendation isn't a call up.

[TigerTedd]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

Yeah but it says he told the player he'd been selected for England before scouts came to see him. 

The article says he was dropped when selectors found out he was black. How can he be dropped from something he isn't part of and I'm assuming he wasn't part of it because selectors didn't pick him. 

Surely in 1925 you didn't get selected for England by a club manager saying "my lad should play for England" 

A recommendation isn't a call up.

Maybe he was selected by certain people, and that would normally be enough of a seal of approval, but then when the real powers that be saw he was black, then they pulled the plug on it. 

just speculating. 

[RoyMac5]

25 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yeah but it says he told the player he'd been selected for England before scouts came to see him. 

The article says he was dropped when selectors found out he was black. How can he be dropped from something he isn't part of and I'm assuming he wasn't part of it because selectors didn't pick him. 

Surely in 1925 you didn't get selected for England by a club manager saying "my lad should play for England" 

A recommendation isn't a call up.

You seem to be trying very hard to disprove an article you know little about. I'm not surprised by the article. How do you know how you got called up in 1925? 

[RoyMac5]

Quote

In an interview in 1978, Leslie recalled the day he heard he would be called up. “One day, a Tuesday, as I remember it, the manager calls me in,” he was quoted as saying. “‘Johnnie,’ he says, ‘I’ve got great news for you. You’ve been picked for England.’”

For Plymouth, a third division side who had been elected to the football league only five years earlier, the selection was a huge deal. There were stories in the local press and celebrations. But before his selection was officially confirmed, Leslie was dropped to travelling reserve, and then dropped entirely.

So according to the article in the Guardian (and BBC) he was 'quietly' edged out.

Quote

Speaking of Leslie's initial selection for the national team his granddaughter, Lesley Hiscott, told the BBC: 'I believe that the manager sent in his request, saying: "I’ve got a brilliant player here, he should play for England,’” 

'So then someone came down to watch him. They weren’t watching his football, they were looking at the colour of his skin.

'And because of that he was denied the chance of playing for his country.' 

 

[Alph]

19 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

Maybe he was selected by certain people, and that would normally be enough of a seal of approval, but then when the real powers that be saw he was black, then they pulled the plug on it. 

just speculating. 

Yeah if the article said that I wouldn't have asked. 

It just said his club manager told him he was selected in 1925 by England and then...

"I believe that the manager sent in his request, saying: 'I've got a brilliant player here, he should play for England,'" his granddaughter, Lesley Hiscott, said. 

So then someone came down to watch him.They weren't watching his football.They were looking at the colour of his skin.And because of that, he was denied the chance of playing for his country."

Leslie later suggested finding out he was black, for the selectors, must have been "like finding out I was foreign".

That's not how football has ever worked to my knowledge. Her last sentence... well if he was foreign then he would definitely not be called up in 1925, no? Thats not xenophobia either. 

I'm don't get the point. If there's more to the story than this article then fair enough. But based on this article this is just an assumption that the selectors were racist? Without any evidence or implications?

Build ten statues for me. I'm not arsed. I'm just confused by the accusation that this chap was dropped by England for being black. 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Build ten statues for me. I'm not arsed. I'm just confused by the accusation that this chap was dropped by England for being black. 

Righteo.

[Anon]

Come on. What possible explanation, other that racism, could there be for a third division player not to get selected over a first division player who'd played in 2 FA cup finals?

Not that I want to denigrate Jack Leslie. I enjoyed reading about his career and he was a massively important player for Plymouth. They should think about putting a statue of him outside Home Park. I'm just not on board with smearing England selectors as racists based on flimsy or non existent evidence 95 years after the game in question.

 

[Alph]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You seem to be trying very hard to disprove an article you know little about. I'm not surprised by the article. How do you know how you got called up in 1925? 

You seem to be very aggressive when I only asked a question. 

I don't know how you got called up in 1925. I asked you.

You said he was recommended by his club manager. I asked if that's how you got an England call up in 1925. 

Surely if every player that was recommended by a club manager got a cap then the England squad in 1925, 1955 or 2005 would be huge. 

My mate was recommended to Leeds. They came to see him play. He never got a trial. He was never selected by Leeds. Never. He has never been a Leeds player. He has never been dropped. They didn't take him on. That is not being dropped by Leeds. And who ever recommended him doesn't get to pick who Leeds give trials to either. 

So, I will try again and expect an arsey answer again. In 1925 could a club manager call up a player to the national team? 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

So, I will try again and expect an arsey answer again. In 1925 could a club manager call up a player to the national team? 

The article is in every paper including the Daily Fail. Look the answer up for yourself. I am more than happy to accept that he was expected to play for the England team, was watched and then dropped to reserve and then altogether. Although England needed flair and goals and he was a flair player and scored goals. The match he didn't play in ended 0-0. 

If you need further information I suggest you Google it. The point has been made by many others with more information than me, if you want to question it go ahead,

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Righteo.

You clearly have a problem with me even though I've only asked you a question

The nearest I have to an answer so far is 

1) How do you know how people were called up in 1925? 

I don't. I asked you. All I know is in my lifetime a recommendation from a club manager doesn't get you an international call up. 

 

2)"So then someone came down to watch him. They weren’t watching his football, they were looking at the colour of his skin."

This is an opinion, no? So why does she assume that? Based on? 

Steve Bruce won 3 PL titles and never got a cap. Can he assume it's because he is ugly? 

As I said, my mate had Leeds scouts come and see him but they didn't take him on. How is this any different 

You can keep the arsey responses coming too. I don't understand why you're doing it when I've not been rude to you. Selecting a part of my quote and saying "righteo" is supposed to imply what exactly? 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Alpha said:

You can keep the arsey responses coming too. I don't understand why you're doing it when I've not been rude to you. Selecting a part of my quote and saying "righteo" is supposed to imply what exactly? 

That you know as much about the selection process in 1925 (or thereabouts) as I do. Saying that Steve Bruce was ugly is that why he didn't get a cap is not a reason I've ever heard for footballers getting into a team - have you?

So if you find out more information, other than your mates (1920s?) hearsay fine. No one else bar you has questioned the process, you could be onto something...or not.

[Alph]

10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

The article is in every paper including the Daily Fail. Look the answer up for yourself. I am more than happy to accept that he was expected to play for the England team, was watched and then dropped to reserve and then altogether. Although England needed flair and goals and he was a flair player and scored goals. The match he didn't play in ended 0-0. 

If you need further information I suggest you Google it. The point has been made by many others with more information than me, if you want to question it go ahead,

So you can't answer me then. 

Why didn't you just say that? 

I don't buy papers. I read the article you posted and asked a question. You started being a dick to me because I asked a question. Are you as aggressive with being questioned in real life? Let me guess, "google it"?