Statue campaign for dropped black player

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

So you can't answer me then. 

Why didn't you just say that? 

I don't buy papers. I read the article you posted and asked a question. You started being a dick to me because I asked a question. Are you as aggressive with being questioned in real life? Let me guess, "google it"?

Why on earth does it matter that I can't tell you the exact selection process in 1925(?), why are you surprised I can't answer it. Why on earth if you're so interested in it don't you use a search engine - you don't need to buy a paper!

So what does it matter to you if everyone else thinks this player could have been a first black player for England?

[Alph]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

That you know as much about the selection process in 1925 (or thereabouts) as I do. Saying that Steve Bruce was ugly is that why he didn't get a cap is not a reason I've ever heard for footballers getting into a team - have you?

So if you find out more information, other than your mates (1920s?) hearsay fine. No one else bar you has questioned the process, you could be onto something...or not.

Right now we are getting somewhere.

So, you don't know if a recommendation from a manager is enough to get a call up. Me neither. So, how can you begin to assume he was selected and dropped when you don't know the selection process? Because if it's anything like now then a recommendation certainly isn't the same as selection. 

In response to my Steve Bruce point you seem to be suggesting that because racism exists and has/still exists in football then this is likely racist scouts from Englands set up? I can't ever remember a player not being picked because he's ugly. However because we can remember racism against a footballer it's reasonable to assume that this particular case is racism? 

Nobody bar me has questioned the process?

Firstly I'm questioning you and the article. Not the statue. Like I said, they can build a statue for me (remember I said that and you decided to imply I have a problem with it?) 

Secondly, I wouldn't be the only person to question it. 

Thirdly, I'm not trying to be "on to something". I asked you a question and we here because you avoided answering it, was needlessly rude and your attempt at answering was to quote a part of the article that is an opinion and didn't even answer my question anyway. 

[Alph]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Why on earth does it matter that I can't tell you the exact selection process in 1925(?),Why on earth if you're so interested in it don't you use a search engine why are you surprised I can't answer it. - you don't need to buy a paper!

So what does it matter to you if everyone else thinks this player could have been a first black player for England?

"Why on earth does it matter that I can't tell you the exact selection process in 1925(?)"

Because to form an opinion I like to be educated on something. So I asked you a question.

"Why on earth if you're so interested in it don't you use a search engine"

Because I thought it would be OK to ask a question to you. Apparently not. And I'm not that interested. I'm only responding to your posts.

"So what does it matter to you if everyone else thinks this player could have been a first black player for England?"

It doesn't. What matters to me is that racism is a very vert serious issue. I've seen what racism does to people. And I don't think anyone should go around implying anybody is racist without reasonable proof.

[Anon]

11 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

So what does it matter to you if everyone else thinks this player could have been a first black player for England?

It wouldn't if they weren't insisting it was because the selection committee were racist. Does the fact that Leslie was playing in the third tier at the time not at least make you question the narrative that he was basically a shoe in for an England cap before the colour of his skin was discovered?

https://martinjohnes.com/2019/10/02/jack-leslie-the-man-who-should-have-been-englands-first-black-international-footballer/

Here is one of the more comprehensive write ups I can find on the situation. It gives a little insight into the selection process at the time, which appears to have been rather convoluted and disorganised.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Because I thought it would be OK to ask a question to you. Apparently not. And I'm not that interested. I'm only responding to your posts.

"So what does it matter to you if everyone else thinks this player could have been a first black player for England?"

It doesn't. What matters to me is that racism is a very vert serious issue. I've seen what racism does to people. And I don't think anyone should go around implying anybody is racist without reasonable proof.

I have no problem with you asking, and I answered you. You were so interested in the answer that you didn't consider that whatever I answered wouldn't be correct, although you've spend considerable time challenging my lack of knowledge.

Indeed racism is a serious, and unfortunately long-standing issue, as can be seen from the subject of this thread. It changes people's lives. How great it will be to have a statue of Jack Leslie from now onwards to inspire lots of black kids and to educate many about footballs history.

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, Anon said:

It wouldn't if they weren't insisting it was because the selection committee were racist. Does the fact that Leslie was playing in the third tier at the time not at least make you question the narrative that he was basically a shoe in for an England cap before the colour of his skin was discovered?

Quote

The Plymouth press had initially welcomed his selection but then dropped the story.  One local reporter did, however, write:

My readers may be expecting from me a comment upon the Argyle Club’s announcement that Jack Leslie was not chosen as reserve forward for England. Unfortunately my pen is under a ban in this matter: but I may say that a mistake was made in London and transmitted to me. Anyway, Leslie was at that time playing quite well enough to be chosen.

 

[Alph]

20 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I have no problem with you asking, and I answered you. You were so interested in the answer that you didn't consider that whatever I answered wouldn't be correct, although you've spend considerable time challenging my lack of knowledge.

Indeed racism is a serious, and unfortunately long-standing issue, as can be seen from the subject of this thread. It changes people's lives. How great it will be to have a statue of Jack Leslie from now onwards to inspire lots of black kids and to educate many about footballs history.

Where did you answer my question?

I don't understand the middle of your post. This thread proves nothing about racism. 

Growing up and getting thrashed on the way to school for walking with a "n****r" showed me racism. Having a best friend that is a Pakistani Muslim and seeing the way he is treated shows me racism. Having a best friend who did a life sentence for murdering a racist shows me what racism is. Or how his black wife was racially abused by a doctor shows me what racism is. Being homeless and finding my way to a shelter to be treated like poo by all except an African immigrant shows me the beauty of all races. 

So maybe I'm a bit more open ducking minded than you suggested. And I'm mightly ducking offended by some of your implications in this thread because as always RoyMac over reacts to someone disagreeing with him and responds in a way which he wouldn't if he was stuffed behind a keyboard. 

You want to know my problem? My problem is ******** virtue signalling and stupid people calling every dog and cat a racist. Thus making racism seem common and losing the impact that real racism has so people like my mate get called a Paki in 2020 it's no different from this poo

 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Alpha said:

So maybe I'm a bit more open ducking minded than you suggested. And I'm mightly ducking offended by some of your implications in this thread because as always RoyMac over reacts to someone disagreeing with him and responds in a way which he wouldn't if he was stuffed behind a keyboard. 

You want to know my problem? My problem is ******** virtue signalling and stupid people calling every dog and cat a racist. Thus making racism seem common and losing the impact that real racism has so people like my mate get called a Paki in 2020 it's no different from this poo

So you have a problem with me asking you why you kept going on about the selection process and now you're telling me I'm virtue signalling. 

Throughout all these posts I've asked if you are so interested why don't you do your own research. You seem unable to accept that as an answer, nor accept that I couldn't see what your problem about this subject is. But now you've said what in your last sentence, fine. I don't agree with you and I still don't know what the selection process is.

[RamNut]

Our statues are a bit Average. Clough and a Taylor went a funny colour. And Dave Mackay has huge hands. Looks like Odd Bod junior. 
 

I’d willingly donate a fair few quid for a statue of Kevin Hector though.

[Sith Happens]

let's just hope someone doesn't misread the order form, I can just imagine the looks on faces when a 20 foot statue of John Leslie is unveiled. 

 

[Alph]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

So you have a problem with me asking you why you kept going on about the selection process and now you're telling me I'm virtue signalling. 

Throughout all these posts I've asked if you are so interested why don't you do your own research. You seem unable to accept that as an answer, nor accept that I couldn't see what your problem about this subject is. But now you've said what in your last sentence, fine. I don't agree with you and I still don't know what the selection process is.

Yes I have a problem with it. Because the implication is that the selection process was racist but you don't even know what the selection process was ffs!! 

Throughout these posts you have responded rudely. Point to me where you answered my first post. I've either missed it or you haven't. You just keep quoting the article which is full of assumptions with no proof that the selection process was racist. 

I'll repeat my last sentence if you want. I'll get my mate to repeat it. Because I know for sure that him being called a p*** is vile, hurtful, blatant racism that makes him feel crap about something he can't change an shouldn't want to change. Just like when he gets bomb jokes from his work colleagues. And it is nothing like this poo. Nothing. Not even close. 

Maybe I would think it was closer if you had ANY evidence on request that he was actually called up for England and dropped because he was black and not because the scouts that came to look at him thought he wasn't what England needed. Do you think every player gets an England cap if their manager thinks they should!? No. No they don't. Which is why I politely asked if that was the case in 1925 but you couldn't be civil. 

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yes I have a problem with it. Because the implication is that the selection process was racist but you don't even know what the selection process was ffs!! 

I have relied on the journalist to do their job. You have relied on what?

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Throughout these posts you have responded rudely. Point to me where you answered my first post. I've either missed it or you haven't. You just keep quoting the article which is full of assumptions with no proof that the selection process was racist. 

Just as you have NO proof it wasn't rascist. 

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I'll repeat my last sentence if you want. I'll get my mate to repeat it. Because I know for sure that him being called a p*** is vile, hurtful, blatant racism that makes him feel crap about something he can't change an shouldn't want to change. Just like when he gets bomb jokes from his work colleagues. And it is nothing like this poo. Nothing. Not even close. 

What has this got to do with recognising a black players (unrewarded) success? It is not either or.

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Maybe I would think it was closer if you had ANY evidence on request that he was actually called up for England and dropped because he was black and not because the scouts that came to look at him thought he wasn't what England needed. Do you think every player gets an England cap if their manager thinks they should!? No. No they don't. Which is why I politely asked if that was the case in 1925 but you couldn't be civil. 

You have no more idea about the process, but you choose to assume the journalist that wrote the article also knew nothing and did no research.

I have been civil all the way through this thread, you are the one continually having a go at me and then suggesting I'm virtue signalling when you know nothing, absolutely nothing about me.

I really aggrieved that your willingness to disbelieve all the articles based on nothing but that YOU think otherwise. I think black history in this country is important and should be seen. This statue would do that and more.

[Stive Pesley]

Hands up who misses the Politics thread?

 

[RoyMac5]

5 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Hands up who misses the Politics thread?

Please lock the thread.

[Alph]

33 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I have relied on the journalist to do their job. You have relied on what?

Just as you have NO proof it wasn't rascist. 

What has this got to do with recognising a black players (unrewarded) success? It is not either or.

You have no more idea about the process, but you choose to assume the journalist that wrote the article also knew nothing and did no research.

I have been civil all the way through this thread, you are the one continually having a go at me and then suggesting I'm virtue signalling when you know nothing, absolutely nothing about me.

I really aggrieved that your willingness to disbelieve all the articles based on nothing but that YOU think otherwise. I think black history in this country is important and should be seen. This statue would do that and more.

You have relied on journalists... ever reliable journalists. And the article you posted carries support evidence from a journalist. It's covering a story.

No, I don't have proof it wasn't racist. Is that how your life works? Can you prove you didn't steal my tools the other day?

No you haven't been civil. Read the thread. Right on the first page. 

[Alph]

38 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

I really aggrieved that your willingness to disbelieve all the articles based on nothing but that YOU think otherwise. I think black history in this country is important and should be seen. This statue would do that and more.

Never said any different. You implying I have again?

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

No you haven't been civil. Read the thread. Right on the first page. 

Take a break mate - I've read the thread and there is only one person being needlessly argumentative

 

 

 

[Alph]

32 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Take a break mate - I've read the thread and there is only one person being needlessly argumentative

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

You seem to be trying very hard to disprove an article you know little about. I'm not surprised by the article. How do you know how you got called up in 1925? 

 

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Righteo.

 

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

So if you find out more information, other than your mates (1920s?) hearsay fine. No one else bar you has questioned the process, you could be onto something...or not.

 

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Indeed racism is a serious, and unfortunately long-standing issue, as can be seen from the subject of this thread. It changes people's lives. How great it will be to have a statue of Jack Leslie from now onwards to inspire lots of black kids and to educate many about footballs history

implications that I have no empathy towards ethnic minorities or the needless "righteo" when I said I don't mind them building the statue. 

I won't stand for even the implication that I'm racist or have no empathy towards this sort of thing. Not even in a passive way. 

All I asked was how is it reasonable to assume he was dropped because he was black? Maybe you can answer me. I was never rude to begin with. 

There is an accusation of racism but the player wasn't dropped was he? He wasn't selected. You can't be selected by your club manager. How is not being selected racist. 

At no stage have I ever said anything against building a statue. I was trying, politely at first, to understand how he was dropped from the squad he was never in. And how we can say he was never in that squad is because he was black

[Alph]

@RoyMac5

I can't see any Plymouth players capped by England until 1982. 

They played in the third division and Sammy Black who played with Leslie and is recognised as Plymouths greatest ever goal scorer also never received an England cap. 

He played alongside Leslie. 

From what I can see of the England squad at the time they were made up of players from division 1 and 2. 

[RoyMac5]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

@RoyMac5

I can't see any Plymouth players capped by England until 1982. 

They played in the third division and Sammy Black who played with Leslie and is recognised as Plymouths greatest ever goal scorer also never received an England cap. 

He played alongside Leslie. 

From what I can see of the England squad at the time they were made up of players from division 1 and 2. 

Look mate you chose to not believe that it was because he was black that he didn't get called up, but that he wasn't good enough - I posted a quote from a local journo at the time that said he was. His manager thought he was. How many others have questioned whether he was good enough? The selection process then sounded 'shambolic' when you read the other post by anon, so it seem quite possible he was selected 'unseen'. But when seen...there were only two non-white players in the leagues at that time. As you said there's blatant racism even today, why be surprised by unspoken racism back in 1925.

Quote

Across a total of fourteen seasons at Argyle he scored 133 league goals in 384 games, making him Argyle's ninth record highest appearance maker, and fourth highest goal scorer.