Alph Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Look mate you chose to not believe that it was because he was black that he didn't get called up, but that he wasn't good enough - I posted a quote from a local journo at the time that said he was. His manager thought he was. How many others have questioned whether he was good enough? The selection process then sounded 'shambolic' when you read the other post by anon, so it seem quite possible he was selected 'unseen'. But when seen...there were only two non-white players in the leagues at that time. As you said there's blatant racism even today, why be surprised by unspoken racism back in 1925. I'm willing to believe it's because he was black. My question at the start of the thread was purely to try and understand why in the article you posted that it was because he was black. His team mate was an even better player from what I can tell and also didn't get a cap. I tried to follow up other successful teams and players of the time in div 3. His manager thinking he is good enough is irrelevant to some extent. How many players are backed by their manager to play at a higher level and be worth xx? I can accept that there may have been a bias in the selection. There still is now! And don't suggest that I'm against a statue of this man. Based on being a Plymouth Legend he perhaps deserves one. From what I can tell it would have been unusual for a player in the 3rd division to get a call up. Dixie Dean scored 27 in 27 for Tranmere (division 3) in 1925. He moved to Everton and scored 32 goals in 38 games in division 1, 1926. He didn't get a cap until February 1927. From what I can tell division 3 players didn't get called up for England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Alpha said: I'm willing to believe it's because he was black. My question at the start of the thread was purely to try and understand why in the article you posted that it was because he was black. Because the article said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Harry Morris scored 261 in 349 for Swindon. Got called up for a trial game but was injured. Never called again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Alpha said: Harry Morris scored 261 in 349 for Swindon. Got called up for a trial game but was injured. Never called again. Fine. Tell the journo. But it doesn't affect the article in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Because the article said so. I can post articles that say the Earth is flat, the world trade center was planned by Americans, Hitler died in Argentina in the 70's...everything Kenny Burns has ever written. The BBC are currently under heavy criticism for covering for Boris. With their deleted tweets pulled up to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 according to Wikipedia the first England call up from the 3rd division was 1948. He'd just moved from Chelsea in div 1 to Notts County div 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 03/07/2020 at 20:58, Alpha said: They played in the third division and Sammy Black who played with Leslie and is recognised as Plymouths greatest ever goal scorer also never received an England cap. They didnt pick him because of his surname, at least that is what the BBC probably reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 03/07/2020 at 08:27, Alpha said: The manager put his name forward, called him into the office to tell him he had been selected and THEN they came to watch him play? Is that how it worked back then? Having read and re-read the bbc article I have assume that the writer didn't intend to set out the timeline of events like this. I agree that it's how the article reads and it presents a very odd selection process that is unlikely to be correct. It's because he jumps between his own writing and directly quoting Leslie's relatives that the timeline gets muddled. I also too a closer look at the team selected for the match in question. It does appear to have been an experimental line up. Claude Ashton, an amateur at Corinthians, captained the team to win his only cap. George Armitage of 3rd division Charlton Athletic also won his only cap. So there is evidence of lower league players getting call ups. From what I've read this is in part due to the FA trying to maintain a north/south balance and still have some amateur representation in the national team at the time. Having said that, there's no mention of Leslie in the minutes of FA selection committee meeting. I struggle to understand why some people are so willing to believe in the complete infallibility of the journalists that printed the erroneous team selection, whilst also engaging in conspiracy theories about the FA doctoring their records because they didn't want a particular player as a travelling reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 5 hours ago, Anon said: Having read and re-read the bbc article I have assume that the writer didn't intend to set out the timeline of events like this. I agree that it's how the article reads and it presents a very odd selection process that is unlikely to be correct. It's because he jumps between his own writing and directly quoting Leslie's relatives that the timeline gets muddled. I also too a closer look at the team selected for the match in question. It does appear to have been an experimental line up. Claude Ashton, an amateur at Corinthians, captained the team to win his only cap. George Armitage of 3rd division Charlton Athletic also won his only cap. So there is evidence of lower league players getting call ups. From what I've read this is in part due to the FA trying to maintain a north/south balance and still have some amateur representation in the national team at the time. Having said that, there's no mention of Leslie in the minutes of FA selection committee meeting. I struggle to understand why some people are so willing to believe in the complete infallibility of the journalists that printed the erroneous team selection, whilst also engaging in conspiracy theories about the FA doctoring their records because they didn't want a particular player as a travelling reserve. Cheers I didn't actually mean to make a big deal out of it. ☺️ I just opened the thread, read the article and thought how does he get dropped when never selected, how was even selected before they came to see him and upon reading the quote from his relative she said his club manager recommended him. So by the only rules of football I have ever known it made no sense. I probably should have gone digging myself but I just posted my questions on here. I didn't even know he was a Div 3 player until you said. Still, if the statue helps inspire then what harm can it do? Although maybe make more sense to have a statue of Viv Anderson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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