Coronavirus

[Stive Pesley]

16 hours ago, Paul71 said:

I know some who have/are. It's a sad reflection of some in society that something so well meaning has been abused by some..

Not aimed at you Paul, but it's also a sad reflection when people have a pop at businesses who may have abused the furlough scheme slightly, when in the grand scheme, it's nothing compared to how much big business have continued to abuse the tax system. Or how our politicians abuse the expenses system. Or how they benefit from the lobbying system. Or how they have dished out £millions in contracts to their cronies without competitive tender during the pandemic

I don't think we should really be criticising the small business owner when the behaviour is embedded from the top down

[djfred84]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

Not aimed at you Paul, but it's also a sad reflection when people have a pop at businesses who may have abused the furlough scheme slightly, when in the grand scheme, it's nothing compared to how much big business have continued to abuse the tax system. Or how our politicians abuse the expenses system. Or how they benefit from the lobbying system. Or how they have dished out £millions in contracts to their cronies without competitive tender during the pandemic

I don't think we should really be criticising the small business owner when the behaviour is embedded from the top down

Nail head probably the best post on here and great thing about this the post is fully fact checkable.

[Gone]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

Not aimed at you Paul, but it's also a sad reflection when people have a pop at businesses who may have abused the furlough scheme slightly, when in the grand scheme, it's nothing compared to how much big business have continued to abuse the tax system. Or how our politicians abuse the expenses system. Or how they benefit from the lobbying system. Or how they have dished out £millions in contracts to their cronies without competitive tender during the pandemic

I don't think we should really be criticising the small business owner when the behaviour is embedded from the top down

Off the Covid topic but In slight response to this post.  I listened to the Uk google MD on GMTV the other morning. He stated several times on National TV that Google pay the exact amount of TAX required in the UK (it was an extremely small amount Vs revenue) He was challenged and came back with the same response every time. Now I’m pretty sure a person in their position would not deliver anything but facts on National Television. So maybe just maybe it’s not the big companies screwing the Tax man, maybe just maybe we need to change the rules? 

[JoetheRam]

I'm sure Google do pay what they owe legally. However what they owe can be argued successfully by the professionals they pay exhorbitant fees to. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal and there are many accountants out there advising these companies how to do so.

Whether it's ethical or not is up for debate.

What is for sure though is the tax system is convoluted by design so that your average Joe can't easily fiddle the system to his advantage, whereas the rich can afford to hire accountants to do the work for them to exploit the various loopholes. Only sure fire way for the working man is Cash in Hand.  Just another example of the rigged system we operate in.  Such is life.

[Stive Pesley]

7 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Off the Covid topic but In slight response to this post.  I listened to the Uk google MD on GMTV the other morning. He stated several times on National TV that Google pay the exact amount of TAX required in the UK (it was an extremely small amount Vs revenue) He was challenged and came back with the same response every time. Now I’m pretty sure a person in their position would not deliver anything but facts on National Television. So maybe just maybe it’s not the big companies screwing the Tax man, maybe just maybe we need to change the rules? 

Of course - Google aren't doing anything illegal with their taxes. They are simply taking advantage of the ambiguities in the UK taxation rules. The same way every wealthy tax avoider does. The rules do need changing, but then that's where the lobying comes in. These wealthy businesses lobby MPs (ie give them "donations") to make sure that they don't go changing the rules. A certain recent opposition leader was very keen to change those rules, but unsurprisingly was slaughtered at every opportunity by the wealthy media companies who had a vested interest in NOT changing the rules

 

But we digress into politics - suffice to say my point stands. Any small businesses who took the furlough money, did so under the rules that were published. Whether they acted morally is the point in question. They didn't act illegally.

Exactly the same as tax avoidance, lobbying, political cronyism etc

Except in most cases they will have been doing it as a matter of survival - not greed

[Gone]

28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Except in most cases they will have been doing it as a matter of survival - not greed

I guess the large corporations will say the same about tax management, protecting business thus protecting people’s livelihoods.

[Stive Pesley]

35 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

I guess the large corporations will say the same about tax management, protecting business thus protecting people’s livelihoods.

So that's OK?

It sounds like you agreeing with me that this sort of behaviour is endemic throughout the economy/society, from the top down

I guess the question is why anyone feels the need to make excuses for those at the top doing it, but lay into those at the bottom

 

 

 

[Sith Happens]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

 

They didn't act illegally.

 

Thats the point isn't it, is that where you draw the line to what's acceptable or not when it comes to furlough claims ?

The example I have in mind is a family business I know if where said family member is on furlough but still doing the admin and payroll. That is illegal. 

to me there is nothing acceptable about that and no amount of whataboutery will convince me it is

 

[Gone]

Just now, SchtivePesley said:

So that's OK?

It sounds like you agreeing with me that this sort of behaviour is endemic throughout the economy/society, from the top down

I guess the question is why anyone feels the need to make excuses for those at the top doing it, but lay into those at the bottom

 

 

 

I think anything and corporation/business whatever can do to save jobs in the current climate is exactly the right thing to do. 
 

And yes I agree with you the behaviour to protects ones interest is endemic from top to bottom of society. 
 

I do disagree on your last comment though, I think those at the top get laid into far more than the ones at the bottom. I believe especially in today’s culture, those who work the system in their favour are far more protected and defend by society today (well by the noisy minority at least ?)

[Stive Pesley]

13 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

to me there is nothing acceptable about that and no amount of whataboutery will convince me it is

I'm not trying to tell you it's acceptable. I'm just pointing out that it's not surprising, and in the scheme of things it's nothing compared to the behaviour of the wealthy. By all means be angry with both, but it makes me sad when people get angry with a small family business yet will happily order from Amazon, watch Youtube, use Google etc and don't think twice about the amount of tax they are avoiding or the amount of insane wealth they are siphoning off into tax havens

[ariotofmyown]

26 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

I think anything and corporation/business whatever can do to save jobs in the current climate is exactly the right thing to do. 
 

And yes I agree with you the behaviour to protects ones interest is endemic from top to bottom of society. 
 

I do disagree on your last comment though, I think those at the top get laid into far more than the ones at the bottom. I believe especially in today’s culture, those who work the system in their favour are far more protected and defend by society today (well by the noisy minority at least ?)

So the ones at the top get a bit of stick from the noisy minority, but get to keep even more of their huge wealth?

Whereas the ones at the bottom who work the system get defended by the noisy minority, although everything is still stacked against them?

I bet all those in the wealthy elite are desperate to swap places.

[Sith Happens]

15 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I'm not trying to tell you it's acceptable. I'm just pointing out that it's not surprising, and in the scheme of things it's nothing compared to the behaviour of the wealthy. By all means be angry with both, but it makes me sad when people get angry with a small family business yet will happily order from Amazon, watch Youtube, use Google etc and don't think twice about the amount of tax they are avoiding or the amount of insane wealth they are siphoning off into tax havens

of course it's easier to judge people you know than faceless organisations. 

I just can't buy into the 'well such and such does it so my little bit won't make much difference ' 

the argument isn't whether it's ok for Amazon etc to get away with it or not,  just my opinion I guess 

in the example I use, there is clear abuse of a system designed for a purpose,  not to line the pockets of a well off small business owner.  The same small business owner who has encouraged younger employees to 'volunteer ' throughout and suggested those who don't will be the first on the list should redundancies be required. 

anyway I've said my bit I won't comment further.

[Gone]

20 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

So the ones at the top get a bit of stick from the noisy minority, but get to keep even more of their huge wealth?

Whereas the ones at the bottom who work the system get defended by the noisy minority, although everything is still stacked against them?

I bet all those in the wealthy elite are desperate to swap places.

Everyone has the same opportunity in life so I don’t and won’t blame the wealthy for their decisions. Maybe less whining about what others have/do and more trying to improve their own situation each day and things may change for folk.
Anyway I don’t want to slip into politics and only mentioned what the guy from a major organisation had said on telly, just for a bit of balance on the forum (which is sadly lacking) 

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Everyone has the same opportunity in life ...

What?

[Gone]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What?

Everyone has the same opportunity in life, is what it said.

If you want something, work hard enough for it then anybody can be anything. 
 

[Gone]

11 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Everyone has the same opportunity in life, is what it said.

If you want something, work hard enough for it then anybody can be anything. 
 

The only exception is Mason Bennett, he can work has hard as he wants he’ll never be a 20 goal a season footballer 

[Mafiabob]

1 hour ago, TexasRam said:

Everyone has the same opportunity in life, is what it said.

If you want something, work hard enough for it then anybody can be anything. 
 

Absolutely this..... Shame some want everything laid on a plate for them 

[Stive Pesley]

22 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Absolutely this..... Shame some want everything laid on a plate for them 

and an even bigger shame that some do get it laid on a plate for them and don't have to try very hard at all

Kind of makes me a bit sick when people try and paint the disadvantaged as "just not trying hard enough"

 

 

 

[Mafiabob]

9 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

and an even bigger shame that some do get it laid on a plate for them and don't have to try very hard at all

Kind of makes me a bit sick when people try and paint the disadvantaged as "just not trying hard enough"

 

 

 

Where am I referring to as the disadvantaged?

 

[GboroRam]

46 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Where am I referring to as the disadvantaged?

 

Surely there's no such thing if everyone has the same opportunity.