Holmes Racial Abuse Complaint

[Inglorius]

Gaeten Bong Jay Rodriguez?

[i-Ram]

6 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

So in summary Brentford and their fans saints, derby and theirs scum?

I think Paul you need to read his post again if that is your interpretation.  Seems a well measured piece, as have all his posts. I think you are probably infuriated by some of the idiotic posting on the Brentford Forum. I haven’t looked at that personally, but can imagine it to be a lot more partisan than Bee’s reflections.

[Sith Happens]

4 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I think Paul you need to read his post again if that is your interpretation.  Seems a well measured piece, as have all his posts. I think you are probably infuriated by some of the idiotic posting on the Brentford Forum. I haven’t looked at that personally, but can imagine it to be a lot more partisan than Bee’s reflections.

Are you sure you are on about the same poster? Im on about bees fan.

[ram59]

Having read comments on their forum, I wonder if they would have had the same reaction if Rowett was still manager and not an ex Chelsea legend from up the road? 

[AlfonzoBurlonzo]

14 minutes ago, Bee said:

No sorry, I meant that he was banging on the dugout and goading the fans - deliberately aiming his celebrations in the direction of the Brentford fans behind rather than just celebrating with his team mates. Again, of course that would never justify anything racial, but if the home team score after that then you’ve asked for a tirade of subsequent abuse. 

Interesting to see Curtis Davies’ recent tweet that the claims are that it was a gesture as opposed to a chant. My only slight doubt beforehand was if something was perhaps almost just mouthed to Holmes that I’d missed, but if the claim is indeed that it was a gesture then I must say that does nothing but further my opinion that said claim is either bogus or at best misunderstood. My eyes were on the incident in its entirety from start to finish and there was nothing of the sort. 

How on EARTH does that further your opinion. You said you didn't HEAR anything, a gesture is not something you can hear. You have no proof to disbelieve that there was not a gesture as you don't have 6,000 eyeballs up in that head of yours. You even said previously that there was a lot of Brentford fans gesticulating at Holmes, who are you to say that one of them wasn't a monkey gesture? Now get off the forum with your speculative thoughts which have absolutely no basis and go and join the disgrace that are the Brentford forums. 

[Pearl Ram]

I think they might have organised a whip round to cheer the travelling fans up if Rowett was still our manager. ?

[Ramarena]

2 hours ago, Inglorius said:

Pure supposition and speculation again the CPS will decide whether (a) it is in the public interest to proceed with a court case and (b) whether the court case is likely to succeed with the evidence submitted to them and not waste the tax payers money on a case that will not be won.

The CPS decide whether there is enough evidence available not the police 

To a point but the police would only hand he case onto the CPS if there was a some kind of case to answer..

If he was obviously innocent then the file wouldn’t get handed over and he’d be released without charge, not bailed

[i-Ram]

13 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Are you sure you are on about the same poster? Im on about bees fan.

Yeah Bees Fan. The one you directly quoted. He didn’t mention our fans at all, let alone give you any reason to suggest he thought us scum.  He makes a earnest defence for one Brentford Fan, who he knows but does not have any strong friendship with.  I personally think there is some overreaction to what seems to me a perfectly measured post. Whether Bees Fan is correct in his assertion I have no idea.  I was sat on my sofa at the time.

[Inglorius]

2 minutes ago, AlfonzoBurlonzo said:

How on EARTH does that further your opinion. You said you didn't HEAR anything, a gesture is not something you can hear. You have no proof to disbelieve that there was not a gesture as you don't have 6,000 eyeballs up in that head of yours. You even said previously that there was a lot of Brentford fans gesticulating at Holmes, who are you to say that one of them wasn't a monkey gesture? Now get off the forum with your speculative thoughts which have absolutely no basis and go and join the disgrace that are the Brentford forums. 

Why not leave it for the CPS to decide unless you think you are more qualified than them in this matter?

[Bees Fan]

5 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Question. If hes found guilty will you still defend him and say its a witch hunt or accept that even Brentford can have racist fans?

I hope he is innocent and it was a misunderstanding btw.

Difficult one for me, I fear the current climate is screaming out for someone to be charged for this, Sky, the Beeb and the Sun are desperate, I know the guy, I really can't believe and have been told by all that I know from that area of the ground that he didn't. Brentford and the surrounding area is and always has been an area of colour, we had 8 black players starting a game in the early 80s which strangely made the news, it just a natural thing for the club, I've no doubt we have a %, a very small % I hope of racist fans but I really don't think he is one of them.

We had Leroy Rosenior as our manager for a few months a few years ago, he was terrible but was a lovely bloke, his autobiography said that he suffered racist abuse at all of his clubs bar us which I was quite proud of, obviously we were part of his latter career when times were changing but I don't think racism is a major issue at GP, I certainly hope not and don't hear anything, I'm at it all game at oppo players and got my customary thumbs up and smile from Keogh yesterday for telling him to hoof the ball and try not to be too clever with it, we've had this relationship for years, anyway I wish you well and hope that this young man's life isn't in tatters as I sincerely believe he hasn't done anything of a racist nature.

[Bee]

Just now, AlfonzoBurlonzo said:

How on EARTH does that further your opinion. You said you didn't HEAR anything, a gesture is not something you can hear. You have no proof to disbelieve that there was not a gesture as you don't have 6,000 eyeballs up in that head of yours. You even said previously that there was a lot of Brentford fans gesticulating at Holmes, who are you to say that one of them wasn't a monkey gesture? Now get off the forum with your speculative thoughts which have absolutely no basis and go and joy the disgrace that are the Brentford forums. 

What are you talking about? 

Since when do I need ‘6000 eyes’ to see an incident that was but a mere metre in front of me? 

There were a grand total of 2, yes 2, Brentford fans who ran down the stairs in Holmes’ direction. Or one for each eye if you will.

If being a direct eyewitness to an event in its entirety isn’t proof and is merely ‘speculative thoughts’, then Christ almighty do I hope you’re never given jury duty. 

[AlfonzoBurlonzo]

Just now, Inglorius said:

Why not leave it for the CPS to decide unless you think you are more qualified than them in this matter?

I don't see how that has any relevance to what I said. I did not state what I thought happened, but you don't refute claims of racism because you didn't hear a gesture. It is entirely possible that the Brentford fan cupped his ears to like say "what you sayin now?" and Duane misinterpreted it. Or he was genuinely racist. There is no way of knowing - but to come on here discounting that his fan was racist 100% is gross imo. 

[RamNut]

It seems a bit extreme to actually leave your seat and go up to the opposition dug out to dish out some abuse to a player.

Anyway we could resolve all this quite amicably by just agreeing that brentford take back jozefzoon and give us our money back.

[Bees Fan]

7 minutes ago, RamNut said:

It seems a bit extreme to actually leave your seat and go up to the opposition dug out to dish out some abuse to a player.

Anyway we could resolve all this quite amicably by just agreeing that brentford take back jozefzoon and give us our money back.

Love the guy mate, would have him back in a heartbeat....

[R@M]

2 hours ago, Inglorius said:

And you've just proved my point in your last paragraph as highlighted above it is pure speculation not an indication of guilt or innocence for either of the parties concerned.

Leave the CPS to do their job and then start commenting when they have decided the outcome and then when the guilty not guilty verdict is delivered.

 

I have not, at any point speculated or stated the person is guilty. I have not stated I know the CPS will take the matter further. 

I was simply offering the facts as they are and applying the guidelines used by the police in making a referral to the CPS. 

An individual complaint with only the hearsay of the victim and defendant with no evidence would never be referred. It would not pass any of the tests required before it can get to that point. 

In a case where it is solely verbal, unlike an assault, there has to have been corroborate evidence collected by and provided by the police for it to get to the CPS. My speculation, as I do not know, is regarding what evidence the police have. Witnesses are most likely, but a charge so quickly without much time for witness statements suggest a confession. It could be a recording for all we know. 

 

[Sith Happens]

20 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Yeah Bees Fan. The one you directly quoted. He didn’t mention our fans at all, let alone give you any reason to suggest he thought us scum.  He makes a earnest defence for one Brentford Fan, who he knows but does not have any strong friendship with.  I personally think there is some overreaction to what seems to me a perfectly measured post. Whether Bees Fan is correct in his assertion I have no idea.  I was sat on my sofa at the time.

Maybe you are right. I should keep out of it. I have no issue with people defending someone's character. But to state if he is found guilty then they won't believe it anyway, thats more aimed at the other forum not posters here.

 

[Ramarena]

18 minutes ago, R@M said:

I have not, at any point speculated or stated the person is guilty. I have not stated I know the CPS will take the matter further. 

I was simply offering the facts as they are and applying the guidelines used by the police in making a referral to the CPS. 

An individual complaint with only the hearsay of the victim and defendant with no evidence would never be referred. It would not pass any of the tests required before it can get to that point. 

In a case where it is solely verbal, unlike an assault, there has to have been corroborate evidence collected by and provided by the police for it to get to the CPS. My speculation, as I do not know, is regarding what evidence the police have. Witnesses are most likely, but a charge so quickly without much time for witness statements suggest a confession. It could be a recording for all we know. 

 

Not sure on your last sentences, surely If he has confessed then he would be awaiting a court date at the Mags, not being refered to the CPS for judgement? 

[Bee]

51 minutes ago, RamNut said:

It seems a bit extreme to actually leave your seat and go up to the opposition dug out to dish out some abuse to a player.

Anyway we could resolve all this quite amicably by just agreeing that brentford take back jozefzoon and give us our money back.

That I agree with. I can’t claim to know the fan like Bees Fan does, nor have I ever spoken to him, but I recognise him through virtue of the fact we’re season ticket holders who sit in the same block. 

He’ll often run down and shout abuse at players who’ve goaded fans like Holmes did, which I have always found excessive, but it is always pretty harmless and never any more than simply rubbing a goal in a player’s face. It does seem common for players sat there to be cheeky and see what they can get away with out of view of any kind of officials or club staff, Holmes wasn’t the first to do it and he won’t be the last. 

I always see everything he does and hear pretty much everything he says in the number of years I’ve been sat there, so yeah I will say it would be quite strange if he’s actually been a closet racist all along and an end of season dead rubber of all games was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. 

[Inglorius]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

That I agree with. I can’t claim to know the fan like Bees Fan does, nor have I ever spoken to him, but I recognise him through virtue of the fact we’re season ticket holders who sit in the same block. 

He’ll often run down and shout abuse at players who’ve goaded fans like Holmes did, which I have always found excessive, but it is always pretty harmless and never any more than simply rubbing a goal in a player’s face.

I always see everything he does and hear pretty much everything he says in the number of years I’ve been sat there, so yeah I will say it would be quite strange if he’s actually been a closet racist all along and an end of season dead rubber of all games was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. 

If you read that back then there's a few things you may want to reflect on....

Running up to someone and shouting abuse is tantamount to threatening behavior which is a police offense.

And trying to further your point by saying the match was a dead rubber is simply untrue it can only be called a dead rubber if neither team has anything to play for patently we are still very much in the hunt for a playoff place.

[Bee]

12 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

If you read that back then there's a few things you may want to reflect on....

Running up to someone and shouting abuse is tantamount to threatening behavior which is a police offense.

And trying to further your point by saying the match was a dead rubber is simply untrue it can only be called a dead rubber if neither team has anything to play for patently we are still very much in the hunt for a playoff place.

Perhaps, and if the club or anyone wanted to argue that then that’s another matter. No one’s complained about it before mind, nor has anyone seemed particularly phased. Anyone doing that is always rightfully intercepted by a steward instantly and shooed back to their seat after a second or two. It’s honestly nothing you don’t see at grounds up and down the country every week. Again, I don’t condone it, just saying its nothing particularly uncommon or remarkable. But racist it most certainly never is. I promise you, even just a whiff of undertones of that at any time in the past and I’d have reported it. 

I meant it as a dead rubber for ourselves. We’re not going up, we’re not going down and I can assure you enthusiasm for this game was probably one of the lowest of the season so far as far as Brentford fans were concerned. I just meant a game like that would’ve been an odd one for an alleged racist to finally snap after years of suppression.