Gritstone Ram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 29 minutes ago, ilkleyram said: And it really annoys me when people - anyone, including football managers - are 'unfairly dismissed' and then employers who were previously perfectly happy to sign a contract which has terms and conditions in it, then try and wriggle out of it. And well done Mel (if that is what this is) for not doing so and for paying off PC's contract. If employers want to sack someone fairly and can make the case subsequently stick in court or tribunal then fair enough, but if they want rid of someone but don't have a legal case for doing so then they should pay up. You can't have it both ways and employment law applies to football just as much as it does to every other sector. I doubt I'd get a pay out within the first year of my contract at any company. I believe within the first year you can fire with no reason apart from football by the sounds of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gritters said: He failed to sign a decent player. He failed to entertain me. He failed to bring any value to the club. Got us to top of the league but if he failed to entertain YOU then I guess he had to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, Gritters said: I doubt I'd get a pay out within the first year of my contract at any company. I believe within the first year you can fire with no reason apart from football by the sounds of it. Not true. Most of the time you are set on on a probation period, usually 3 or 6 months. They cant get rid without a reason, they have to demonstrate you have failed your probation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, 86 points said: Got us to top of the league but if he failed to entertain YOU then I guess he had to go Deffo but if I wasn't being entertained I doubt a lot of people were including MM by his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistaram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, Gritters said: He failed to sign a decent player. He failed to entertain me. He failed to bring any value to the club. Sounds a bit like the present manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, Paul71 said: Not true. Most of the time you are set on on a probation period, usually 3 or 6 months. They cant get rid without a reason, they have to demonstrate you have failed your probation. Obviously if they were the success you wanted you'd be daft to get rid of them. My opinion is he was still within a probation period and not hit his KPI's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, Gritters said: Obviously if they were the success you wanted you'd be daft to get rid of them. My opinion is he was still within a probation period and not hit his KPI's. We dont really know that. Morris stated that promotion was not essential so being 5th could be considered as ok. By all accounts he was sacked because his football wasnt the 'derby way', but i cant really see how you can measure style of play as a kpi if you are winning games, which he was by and large. We all know football is different, do you think for a minute de boer at palace didnt get a pay off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Mistaram said: Sounds a bit like the present manager I suspect the conditions are a bit different and also the current manager hasn't spunked £6m on Bradley Johnson based upon 1 good season previously and £5m on Butterfield who couldn’t pass a ball forward. £3m on Nick Blackman? Weimann £2m I think I'm upto £16m out of any of them players which do you think we'll get the best return on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Paul71 said: We dont really know that. Morris stated that promotion was not essential so being 5th could be considered as ok. By all accounts he was sacked because his football wasnt the 'derby way', but i cant really see how you can measure style of play as a kpi if you are winning games, which he was by and large. We all know football is different, do you think for a minute de boer at palace didnt get a pay off? You may be able to measure things upon footfall. Ticket sales etc... I know these people get pay offs but it gets me how people get rewarded for failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 22 minutes ago, Gritters said: We were top at Christmas and we were dropping like lead balloon when he went. I think we ought to have paid Blackmans transfer fee out of his money. 5 points off 2nd in Feb..... ended up being 19 points come May.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, Mafiabob said: 5 points off 2nd in Feb..... ended up being 19 points come May.... Obviously would have been 20 if he'd stayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkleyram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Gritters said: I doubt I'd get a pay out within the first year of my contract at any company. I believe within the first year you can fire with no reason apart from football by the sounds of it. Then 1) check your contract. If you've agreed to something then that's up to you. You signed it and accepted the conditions 2) It depends what PC and his agent were able to negotiate. They might (and I am guessing) have put in a clause that said 'if you sack me within the first year/within my contract then I want paying up to the end of the contract'. If Sam/Mel signed it then it should be binding upon the club. The club and PC, and any other manager, can agree whatever terms they both want to agree. Most of us would only be sacked from our jobs 'fairly' i.e. that there was good (legal) reason to do so. Football management is different in that there are often shades of opinion (look at different views on this forum about how good/bad Billy Davies was or Gary Rowett is) and managers are often, from a legal perspective, sacked 'unfairly'. In those circumstances their contracts should be paid up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Gritters said: He failed to sign a decent player. He failed to entertain me. He failed to bring any value to the club. Can't argue with any of that maybe managers should have a probationary period like lots of other jobs - it would save us a fortune ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WharfedaleRam Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 29 minutes ago, ilkleyram said: Then 1) check your contract. If you've agreed to something then that's up to you. You signed it and accepted the conditions 2) It depends what PC and his agent were able to negotiate. They might (and I am guessing) have put in a clause that said 'if you sack me within the first year/within my contract then I want paying up to the end of the contract'. If Sam/Mel signed it then it should be binding upon the club. The club and PC, and any other manager, can agree whatever terms they both want to agree. Most of us would only be sacked from our jobs 'fairly' i.e. that there was good (legal) reason to do so. Football management is different in that there are often shades of opinion (look at different views on this forum about how good/bad Billy Davies was or Gary Rowett is) and managers are often, from a legal perspective, sacked 'unfairly'. In those circumstances their contracts should be paid up. Whether a manager can be dismissed legally depnds largely on whether there is a fair reason for dismissal. What are the performance requirements/targets to be met and, if there are failings, at what point are warnings given to try to secure improvement. If no improvement after a period of time, then it seems reasonable (in most if mot all jobs) for the individual to be dismissed without fear of legal consequences and ceryainly without paying up the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkleyram Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, WharfedaleRam said: Whether a manager can be dismissed legally depnds largely on whether there is a fair reason for dismissal. What are the performance requirements/targets to be met and, if there are failings, at what point are warnings given to try to secure improvement. If no improvement after a period of time, then it seems reasonable (in most if mot all jobs) for the individual to be dismissed without fear of legal consequences and ceryainly without paying up the contract. We agree Wharfedale. If you want to get rid of someone, anyone in any sector, quickly and therefore probably 'unfairly' (and in football management that is most often the case) then in most cases you haven't got the time to go through due process so you negotiate a settlement package, normally involving paying off the contract. But there are examples of clubs that avoid doing that. Sometimes, as in Steve MacLaren's case at Forest, managers choose not to claim what they might be due. All I'm saying is that PC, and Pearson too probably, left quickly and the settlements that were agreed between them and the club effectively accepted that they were being dismissed without due process because the club wanted to move on. That's different (so far as we know) to Sam Rush's case and, going back a while, to John Gregory. 'Fair reason' is often a matter of opinion and what might be fair to you or me may not be to someone else. That's for tribunals or courts to decide, both of which are best avoided if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inglorius Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 14 hours ago, Gritters said: I doubt I'd get a pay out within the first year of my contract at any company. I believe within the first year you can fire with no reason apart from football by the sounds of it. 2 years actually. Unless you're fired for gross misconduct then an employer can issue you with your notice monies any time within your first 2 years of employment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Whichever sackings they may apply to, does it not say those decisions are not taken lightly and have come at a cost? They are made out to be knee jerk reactionary moves of a mad man but that’s an expensive knee. It’s ok to still disagree with a sacking, that’s football, I’m fairly sure the wallet of one man would have loved Clement to still be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 16 hours ago, Gritters said: I see it all the time people getting rewarded for failure. Disgusting if you ask me. If they don't meet their target they should go do not pass go or collect £200. In the Clement situation, I don't think he was rewarded for failure. He was compensated for a trigger happy chairman, who despite saying PC was our Sir Alex, and promotion wasn't the immediate aim, sacked him while we were 5 points off the top of the league having just got a decent point away at Fulham. I don't think 5 points off top half way through your debut season where your two most influential midfielders got horror injuries in the first 3 games, is a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 17 hours ago, Gritters said: I see it all the time people getting rewarded for failure. Disgusting if you ask me. If they don't meet their target they should go do not pass go or collect £200. What was the target Clement did not meet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistaram Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, eddie said: What was the target Clement did not meet? Eddie he failed to play the Derby way whatever that means Bet there are a few regrets in the boardroom now but that's what happens when you react to what fans say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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