Should Rooney retire?

[Highgate]

16 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

I think he was 18 when he moved from Everton. He's gone backwards since around age 22 but has lived off his early reputation. He looked as though he might become "world class" in his early years, but never achieved it. It's a fluke of the fixture list and testimony to the lack of talent we used to have that he equalled (with a penalty against San Marino) and then broke (with a penalty against Switzerland) the scoring record. I was embarrassed for him when he seized the ball on both occasions. Surely I thought if he were to break the record he'd want to do it in style from open play?

I should have known better. Of his goals from England, in his long career he's rarely scored against anyone of note. More than a third of all those goals have come against just five footballing powerhouses: San Marino, Switzerland, Kazakhstan, Croatia and Iceland. Though we mustn't forget he's also bagged a brace against Andorra.

Exactly where should he play for England?

• He seems to want to be a defensive midfielder but he's nowhere near as good as Dier or Drinkwater there (or many more).
• Some people want him as the link man, in the hole behind the striker(s), but that stops Dele Alli playing there, for instance.
• Perhaps he should be an out-and-out striker but he's not in the top 20 Premier League strikers and fitting him in takes a place away from the likes of Kane/Vardy/Sturridge/Rashford.
• Maybe given Joe Harte's troubles we should try him in goal?

Basically, Rooney is a utility player who's not as good as the specialist players but they get shunted around because Rooney is seemingly undroppable. Utter madness. For those on here talking about "the hate towards Rooney" I have none. I just hate the way England will never be able to play to their potential until the managers move on and start picking the best players for the job. We have talented players now but by trying to build the team around Rooney we're not maxmizing our potential.

 

Croatia are a quality side to be fair....and Switzerland aren't too bad.  Everything else makes perfect sense though. Especially the rebuttal of the accusations of 'hate' towards Rooney.  Since when has merely thinking a player is no longer an automatic choice for his country mean you must hate that individual?  Can't people be allowed to have opinions on who should and who should not play for the teams they care about, without being accused of harbouring hatreds? 

[Carl Sagan]

3 hours ago, RamuelLJackson said:

I remember the home internationals. They were hard fought. They were often against not high quality opponents though.

One of those Cameroon games was tense and important, Cameroon still weren't high quality opponents though. The Poland game you mention was also important, in context, Poland still weren't a good side.

If you'd based your argument on pressure and importance then your points here would be good ones. Unfortunately you based it on quality of opponent. Of course if you'd based it on pressure and importance then it might be that some of those goals that you want to set aside because the opposition wasn't top quality might have a significance that undermines your position.

FWIW I think Rooney is over-rated based on a memory of how he was really good and could become amazing. He just stayed really good for a while, and then became good to fair. And thanks for your kind words about the name/pic. I was always a big fan of Cosmos.

We'll have to agree to differ. But welcome to the forum. I might not actually be the Carl Sagan, but he did sign my copy of Cosmos for me one time so I'll take that!

[satty atwal]

15 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

Yes Rooney would have got in that squad, he would have been ahead of Shearer for one, he hadn't scored in god knows how many games before the tournament. He would have been ahead of sharing ham, who was also in and out of the team, as for fowler, Les, Collymore, le Tissier and Cole, he would have been absolutely miles ahead of all those....miles ahead of them. 

 

You are entitled to your opinion. Disagree with it all but that's life.

[MuespachRam]

33 minutes ago, satty atwal said:

You are entitled to your opinion. Disagree with it all but that's life.

So you are telling me that a totally out of form shearer would have got in ahead of Rooney.? Sheringham was in and out of the squad and the rest never did it for England....le Tissier especially. I went to every Emgland game home and away around that time and let me tell you we were *****. 

[eddie]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

We'll have to agree to differ. But welcome to the forum. I might not actually be the Carl Sagan, but he did sign my copy of Cosmos for me one time so I'll take that!

As Sagan was a hero of mine, I would like to give you billions and billions of likes, but you will have to do with one.

[satty atwal]

17 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

So you are telling me that a totally out of form shearer would have got in ahead of Rooney.? Sheringham was in and out of the squad and the rest never did it for England....le Tissier especially. I went to every Emgland game home and away around that time and let me tell you we were *****. 

Rooney wouldnt have made the squad nevermind team. Fowler got 28 league goals that year and didnt make the team. Le tissier wasnt even given a chance.... 8 caps which majority wud have been 10 min cameos.

[Highgate]

21 minutes ago, eddie said:

As Sagan was a hero of mine, I would like to give you billions and billions of likes, but you will have to do with one.

Never trust anyone who doesn't like Carl Sagan.  That works for me as a general rule.  

The real Carl Sagan I mean, the jury is still out on this forum's version 

[Van der MoodHoover]

20 hours ago, RamuelLJackson said:

And Bobby Charlton scored 27 of his 49 international goals against just five footballing powerhouses: Luxembourg, USA, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland. Though we mustn't forget he also bagged four against Mexico and three against Switzerland.

We can play this game if you want but it'll be true of lots of top strikers. Gary Lineker's England scoring tally drops by 22 if you remove his goals against Malaysia, Turkey, Cameroon, Poland and Northern Ireland. Point made, I think.

A hat-trick  (in the first half at that), in a must win tournament group game to avoid an ignominious exit,  against a team who had been playing better? And with a much changed team,  with the so called better players crocked,  suspended and dropped?

Yep,  you nailed it mate

[RamuelLJackson]

1 hour ago, HantsRam said:

A hat-trick  (in the first half at that), in a must win tournament group game to avoid an ignominious exit,  against a team who had been playing better? And with a much changed team,  with the so called better players crocked,  suspended and dropped?

Yep,  you nailed it mate

The point you missed was another person arguing Rooney's record number of goals should be reduced in worth because a proportion of the opposition teams weren't great - not addressing the importance of the game context. I was just pointing out you can say that about England's other top three goalscorers too.

If we'd been talking about game importance then I wouldn't have included that Poland game as an example. We weren't; I did.

[Van der MoodHoover]

11 hours ago, satty atwal said:

Rooney wouldnt have made the squad nevermind team. Fowler got 28 league goals that year and didnt make the team. Le tissier wasnt even given a chance.... 8 caps which majority wud have been 10 min cameos.

Tbf every time I saw le tissier wheeled out to accompanying pundit hysteria he played abysmally. 

Another example I think of a player who had his club team built around him so that he could flourish.

[MuespachRam]

4 hours ago, HantsRam said:

Tbf every time I saw le tissier wheeled out to accompanying pundit hysteria he played abysmally. 

Another example I think of a player who had his club team built around him so that he could flourish.

Italy at home when we lost 1-0 in the World Cup qualifier.... One of the worst performances in an England shirt. Never looked like the same player. 

[MuespachRam]

16 hours ago, satty atwal said:

Rooney wouldnt have made the squad nevermind team. Fowler got 28 league goals that year and didnt make the team. Le tissier wasnt even given a chance.... 8 caps which majority wud have been 10 min cameos.

Fowler didn't get picked for the squad or the one affer that either..he was a great striker but not international class. Le Tissier was a waste of an England shirt every time he got one. Wright never did it in an England shirt. Ferdinand and sheringham just weren't as good as Rooney as for Collymore, he was nowhere near good enough  

so yes, Rooney would have made the squad, he would have been on there instead of shearer who was playing rubbish at the time  

dont belive all you see on Sky, we actually weren't that good at Euro 96  

 

[Anon]

44 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

Fowler didn't get picked for the squad or the one affer that either..he was a great striker but not international class. Le Tissier was a waste of an England shirt every time he got one. Wright never did it in an England shirt. Ferdinand and sheringham just weren't as good as Rooney as for Collymore, he was nowhere near good enough  

so yes, Rooney would have made the squad, he would have been on there instead of shearer who was playing rubbish at the time  

dont belive all you see on Sky, we actually weren't that good at Euro 96  

 

You can't bang on about Shearer's form, or lack of it, whilst completely discounting the fact that Rooney is horrendously out of form right now.

In the 95/96 season Shearer scored 31 goals, Fowler 28, Sir Les 25, and Sheringham got 16. Last season Rooney scored 8. The manager would have to be a complete moron to select him as a forward ahead of all those players.

[Mafiabob]

1 hour ago, Anon said:

You can't bang on about Shearer's form, or lack of it, whilst completely discounting the fact that Rooney is horrendously out of form right now.

In the 95/96 season Shearer scored 31 goals, Fowler 28, Sir Les 25, and Sheringham got 16. Last season Rooney scored 8. The manager would have to be a complete moron to select him as a forward ahead of all those players.

That's why he's playing midfield nowadays...... Adapt and evolve, you have to question who is better now 

[satty atwal]

7 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

Fowler didn't get picked for the squad or the one affer that either..he was a great striker but not international class. Le Tissier was a waste of an England shirt every time he got one. Wright never did it in an England shirt. Ferdinand and sheringham just weren't as good as Rooney as for Collymore, he was nowhere near good enough  

so yes, Rooney would have made the squad, he would have been on there instead of shearer who was playing rubbish at the time  

dont belive all you see on Sky, we actually weren't that good at Euro 96  

 

Im not 12. I remember it vividly. Also disagree with everything you have said completely totally and utterly. Will just agree to disagree. 

Finally though.... you will find fowler WAS in the squad.

[BondJovi]

9 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

Fowler didn't get picked for the squad or the one affer that either..he was a great striker but not international class. Le Tissier was a waste of an England shirt every time he got one. Wright never did it in an England shirt. Ferdinand and sheringham just weren't as good as Rooney as for Collymore, he was nowhere near good enough  

so yes, Rooney would have made the squad, he would have been on there instead of shearer who was playing rubbish at the time  

dont belive all you see on Sky, we actually weren't that good at Euro 96  

 

Surely the thing there was we picked the best team/ strikeforce not the best players. Isn't that how it should work? Not doubting Rooney is a great player but where does he fit?

[Van der MoodHoover]

If Sam Allardyce has any sense /cojones at all then given rooney has effectively announced his retirement in 2 years,  he has no excuse whatsoever for phasing him out and building a team of the future through the qualifying campaign.

He can still be in the squad. He can still have a deserved last hurrah in Russia. But what on earth do we need him for to tackle the mighty Malta,  Lithuania,  Slovenia etc. Use the games to bring the next generation through. 

[Mafiabob]

7 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

If Sam Allardyce has any sense /cojones at all then given rooney has effectively announced his retirement in 2 years,  he has no excuse whatsoever for phasing him out and building a team of the future through the qualifying campaign.

He can still be in the squad. He can still have a deserved last hurrah in Russia. But what on earth do we need him for to tackle the mighty Malta,  Lithuania,  Slovenia etc. Use the games to bring the next generation through. 

He is captain, I can't think of another leader of men for England at the minute 

[Carl Sagan]

1 hour ago, Mafiabob said:

He is captain, I can't think of another leader of men for England at the minute 

Pick a captain from the 11 on the pitch. I think it hampers us to announce some weird position of official captain who then seemingly has to play.

[Mafiabob]

8 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Pick a captain from the 11 on the pitch. I think it hampers us to announce some weird position of official captain who then seemingly has to play.

I would agree, but I'm struggling with the current crop on who else it could be.