The Ashes

[Ovis aries]

Getting back to the golf , nice to see young Spieth is showing a bit of form at last , have £100 ew on him at 7-1 .

[AndyinLiverpool]

What are you getting on at me for , when I said there second string and occasional bowlers where getting us out I was agreeing with you , our bowlers have been crap in this game .

It was me that highlighted Andersons poor form of late .

Sorry. That wasn't the intention.

I was just adding my thoughts.

[Albert]

Maybe not the word I'd use to describe it if it's anything like this week.

Changes would be nice in the England top order but the problem is, as I've touched upon, we're not blessed with any depth. Our domestic competition is a joke and, Yorkshire aside, the counties are failing to produce any particularly exciting long form talent. I've said we've no top order prospects and I think the situation is as bad or worse in the bowling department.

That said, we showed that on a pitch with a bit of lateral movement we can cause the Australian lineup some problems. I'll be extremely surprised if we don't see a covering of grass on the pitch at Edgbaston.

Personally I think the big thing that England need to improve is faith in the side. Chopping and changing isn't going to help anyone. The prospect of specially prepared pitches aren't either, nothing says confidence than needing to preparing them specially just so they can "survive". Fully fit, I'm confident the current English side is the best opinion they have at the moment, and they should back them. Send out an unchanged side, back them to play with the attacking play of the first test and take the game to Australia. 

It's pretty obvious that Australia aren't unbeatable, and the difference here was the mindset. In the first game they attacked Australia, and it worked. They rattled the cage, they got Johnson and co down on confidence, and it worked. Why wasn't that followed up here. The pitch isn't as dead as people are saying, it just looked like they expected from the start that "it was to be a draw" and that "the pitch wasn't going to do anything". You know what, all that's achieved is giving Australia confidence. 

This series won't be a procession as long as England get back to what they do best. Don't underestimate Australia, but equally don't get overawed by what is a young side with a spearhead who's head can and does drop. 

[Ovis aries]

This test will be a disaster commercially , don't make the pitches any faster or it will turn out to be a catastrophic Ashes financially .

[Ovis aries]

That's it then turn Sky off and on to BBC for the golf .

[Albert]

This test will be a disaster commercially , don't make the pitches any faster or it will turn out to be a catastrophic Ashes financially .

The pace wasn't a problem. It was clear that all this wicket did was weaken the English attack. 

Hazlewood, that "second string bowler" cleans up the tail. Game over, and it's 1-1. 

England need to lift next match and attack. Having what you hold isn't going to beat this Australian side, they need to take the game to them. 

[Ovis aries]

The pace wasn't a problem. It was clear that all this wicket did was weaken the English attack. 

Hazlewood, that "second string bowler" cleans up the tail. Game over, and it's 1-1. 

England need to lift next match and attack. Having what you hold isn't going to beat this Australian side, they need to take the game to them. 

Keep having you little digs Alby

[Daaave]

I think you're giving us too much credit to be honest Albert. I'm a massive 'happy clapper' for English cricket and the sad truth is that you're right and this probably is our best side but they're simply not good enough.

Forget mindset and aggressive cricket, you can be as positive as you like but when you're 3 down for nothing every innings you're not going to win test series.

[AndyinLiverpool]

You can't continue to be 30 or 40 for 3 and regularly win matches. The top order is a mess. It needs reorganising. Hales, perhaps, moving Moeen up the order (and bring in Rashid at 8), dropping Bell and / or Ballance - all possibilities.

I really don't think keeping things as they are is really an option if you want to proactively improve the team.

[KGDCFC]

Completely outplayed from start to finish. Selectors have got some serious thinking to do. i just can't see how they can keep selecting Bell, he just looks so out of form and people seem to have forgotten he dropped Smith when he was on 50! 

[Albert]

I think you're giving us too much credit to be honest Albert. I'm a massive 'happy clapper' for English cricket and the sad truth is that you're right and this probably is our best side but they're simply not good enough.

Forget mindset and aggressive cricket, you can be as positive as you like but when you're 3 down for nothing every innings you're not going to win test series.

I'd to disagree about the mindset not being that important. These aren't bad players, and that isn't a bad to order. Australia's top order was seen a flimsy until very recently, that never stopped them from what they've done in the last couple of years. Johnson was "done", his career looked over, and he's back to being seen as one of the very best in the world, putting on one of the greatest ever Ashes series performances, and following it up by shredding the top Test side in the World at the time. 

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with England's top 3. Cook will go down as one of the greats, he's 30 with 100 tests, and heading towards 30 test centuries. Lyth is and has looked good, though it's a tough time to be beginning his career. Ballance is a player who has the quality, and given time and confidence will grow into the role. Maybe the way they line up could be tweaked, but I don't think that's the problem. 

Have confidence in the side, if they've given the chance to play with freedom and confidence they can go on to win this series. Unless someone is absolutely knocking down the door, or someone is absolutely shown to be incapable, there is no need to be chopping and changing. More pressure isn't helping. 

[Ovis aries]

Completely outplayed from start to finish. Selectors have got some serious thinking to do. i just can't see how they can keep selecting Bell, he just looks so out of form and people seem to have forgotten he dropped Smith when he was on 50! 

yeah drop Bell but keep Lyth and Ballance

[KGDCFC]

yeah drop Bell but keep Lyth and Ballance

I understand what you mean, but Bell shouldn't really have been selected for this series in the first place, isn't his average something like 11? Which is shocking for a number 4. Id be tempted to persist with Lyth, I am still not sure about Ballance but I don't think too much change all at once would be a good idea.

We just have to accept that Australia were far too good this test, regroup and go again.

[Daaave]

I'd to disagree about the mindset not being that important. These aren't bad players, and that isn't a bad to order. Australia's top order was seen a flimsy until very recently, that never stopped them from what they've done in the last couple of years. Johnson was "done", his career looked over, and he's back to being seen as one of the very best in the world, putting on one of the greatest ever Ashes series performances, and following it up by shredding the top Test side in the World at the time. 

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with England's top 3. Cook will go down as one of the greats, he's 30 with 100 tests, and heading towards 30 test centuries. Lyth is and has looked good, though it's a tough time to be beginning his career. Ballance is a player who has the quality, and given time and confidence will grow into the role. Maybe the way they line up could be tweaked, but I don't think that's the problem. 

Have confidence in the side, if they've given the chance to play with freedom and confidence they can go on to win this series. Unless someone is absolutely knocking down the door, or someone is absolutely shown to be incapable, there is no need to be chopping and changing. More pressure isn't helping. 

I don't think Australia's top order frailties were even approaching our current issues, I can't remember a side ever being 3 down for nothing with quite such alarming regularity. Johnson was dropped several times before really regaining his confidence/form so I'm not sure you're furthering your point mentioning him in an argument for persisting with good, out of form players.

Back to England though; I'm Cook's biggest fan and he's in good nick anyway, no problems with him. I agree with you that Ballance will be a great number 3 for us, but his technique is appalling against real pace and it's not going to be fixed overnight with an encouraging word in his ear. Lyth has a good FC record and may well be an excellent opener for England (not sure we've seen enough from him to suggest he has looked 'good' at test level yet, steady perhaps), but if he doesn't learn to leave the ball very quickly he's going to struggle to make 20 again in this series. Bell seems to have forgotten how to bat in the last 12 months, maybe he'll come good again if we persist with him but who knows.

Basically I don't believe the problem with them is mindset. It's perhaps confidence (though that should've been sky high after Cardiff), but just telling them to play positively isn't going to eradicate the major technical flaws in their games. Fortunately there's a tour match this week so perhaps some good, long net sessions will...

 

[Albert]

I don't think Australia's top order frailties were even approaching our current issues, I can't remember a side ever being 3 down for nothing with quite such alarming regularity. Johnson was dropped several times before really regaining his confidence/form so I'm not sure you're furthering your point mentioning him in an argument for persisting with good, out of form players.

Back to England though; I'm Cook's biggest fan and he's in good nick anyway, no problems with him. I agree with you that Ballance will be a great number 3 for us, but his technique is appalling against real pace and it's not going to be fixed overnight with an encouraging word in his ear. Lyth has a good FC record and may well be an excellent opener for England (not sure we've seen enough from him to suggest he has looked 'good' at test level yet, steady perhaps), but if he doesn't learn to leave the ball very quickly he's going to struggle to make 20 again in this series. Bell seems to have forgotten how to bat in the last 12 months, maybe he'll come good again if we persist with him but who knows.

Basically I don't believe the problem with them is mindset. It's perhaps confidence (though that should've been sky high after Cardiff), but just telling them to play positively isn't going to eradicate the major technical flaws in their games. Fortunately there's a tour match this week so perhaps some good, long net sessions will...

 

I might have to dig out some old scorecards and have a look, but if you feel that way I think you missed some of the best parts of Australia's useless top orders of a few years back. The number 3 position has been a nightmare for Australia for years, and Watson didn't become somewhat of a running joke as a top order batsmen because of his solid performances. 

What I mean by confidence by the way is the mindset of going from winning by over 150 runs in Cardiff to this talk of "slowing the pitches" to basically try and and bore out the series and England generally looking less attacking in the field from the start. They just didn't look the same, it's as though they believed that Cardiff was some kind of fluke. 

The problem with Johnson was one of mindset. He wasn't "dropped into form". He went back to the Shield, dominated, and when a new set of coaches came in they finally realised that to fix him, they just needed to help him with his confidence, not screw with his technique like they did over the years. If you want players who were out of form and persisted with though. Haddin is one example, Lyon and arguably Clarke and Warner are others. That said, I think Haddin's time may have finally come. 

[Daaave]

I might have to dig out some old scorecards and have a look, but if you feel that way I think you missed some of the best parts of Australia's useless top orders of a few years back. The number 3 position has been a nightmare for Australia for years, and Watson didn't become somewhat of a running joke as a top order batsmen because of his solid performances. 

What I mean by confidence by the way is the mindset of going from winning by over 150 runs in Cardiff to this talk of "slowing the pitches" to basically try and and bore out the series and England generally looking less attacking in the field from the start. They just didn't look the same, it's as though they believed that Cardiff was some kind of fluke. 

The problem with Johnson was one of mindset. He wasn't "dropped into form". He went back to the Shield, dominated, and when a new set of coaches came in they finally realised that to fix him, they just needed to help him with his confidence, not screw with his technique like they did over the years. If you want players who were out of form and persisted with though. Haddin is one example, Lyon and arguably Clarke and Warner are others. That said, I think Haddin's time may have finally come. 

If you could dig out the scorecards I wouldn't mind a little giggle to cheer me up, but I'm pretty convinced you won't find a run quite so bad as 3 down for less than 75 in 11 innings out of 13 at any stage.

I think you can maybe use Johnson as an example for either of our stances. Great bowler bereft of confidence that he was never, in my opinion, going to regain playing test cricket. He needed to be dropped for the good of his career and perhaps Bairstow will prove be the same for England, dominating as he is in FC cricket right now. There's only so much that a bit of encouragement can do when you're getting tonked all over the place or scratching around for 10-20 game after game.

England do have a history of persisting with out of form players, and for those who have shown they're capable I'm all for it, really. I certainly wasn't calling for Cook's head last year, nor Bell's in previous lean spells. In fact I have argued time and again with people suggesting we should drop X player due to lack of form. The difference this time is that 2 of the top 4 have real technique issues that I am not convinced they can overcome. I really do hope they prove me wrong and since we lack options they should have this series at least to do that.

[Sexydadbod]

I'd move Root up to 3 and bring in Rashid because the ball will turn a lot at edgebaston

[PistoldPete2]

You can't continue to be 30 or 40 for 3 and regularly win matches. The top order is a mess. It needs reorganising. Hales, perhaps, moving Moeen up the order (and bring in Rashid at 8), dropping Bell and / or Ballance - all possibilities.

I really don't think keeping things as they are is really an option if you want to proactively improve the team.

I would drop Lyth, ballance and bell and maybe Buttler. Not convinced by buttler either as a test batsman or as a wicketkeeper. The. Batting is a real problem. Dunno who I would bring in but even the yorkies I talk to say that neither Lyth nor ballance are top test match players. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

There's Bairstow

[Curtains]

What a load of rubbish by England. 

Why's KP  been dropped when our middle order is so bad. .

Strauss what you going to do about this then.