Do you believe in Capital Punishment?

[RLACML]

I don't even know what that means. Are you accusing me of reacting to the actions of other people? If that's what you mean then that is normal and sensible. If a nutter carrying a hatchet knocks on my door and says he has come to execute my family then what do you expect me to do? Should I ignore him and pretend that he is not there?

What a ridiculous situation to use when we're discussing capital punishment. That's self defense, completely different.

What I meant was, just because someone has become a murderer, doesn't mean you have to be as well.

[Albert]

Even though you have written that you don't believe in capital punishment I believe that you do, in fact, believe in it. Imagine the worse thing possible happening to all those you love. Ask yourself if you really would be happy with the killer not being executed. If Hitler had surrendered then do you think life imprisonment would have been the right punishment.

If someone did the worst possible thing to my loved ones, I wouldn't want them to get the easy way out, and the state to be brought down as low as committing murder themselves. The monster should rot in prison for the rest of their days, rather than people making monsters of themselves "dealing with them".

Personally though I don't even understand how death is a punishment. A horrible, painful death is about as bad as it could get, but even a barbaric state murdering it's own people does it in a humane manner (most of the time). If I allowed myself to be as vindictive as possible to such a person, I'd tend towards a life without freedom, than ending their life. Ultimately though I can't reconcile the idea that reasonable people could see ending the life of others as something that they, or the state, could ever choose, knowing not only that mistakes do happen, but that in many cases it means committing exact crime generally used to justify it.

Leaving Hitler to rot, watching his ruined legacy unfold would have been a far more fitting end.

[Normanton End]

He's shown how strongly he's against capital punishment by suggesting that he wouldn't want it applied even if one of his children were killed. Could you say the same? If your son/daughter murdered somebody, would you want them to be put to death?

Of course, I would, But I would prefer to execute the killer myself. Nearly everyone in the world holds the same view. There is a small percentage of the world's population, however, which has been so brainwashed into sheep like behaviour that they no longer believe that they have any control over their lives and all their decisions have been delegated to the ruling elite. These strange defenceless people mainly live in Western Europe.

[Wolfie]

The World Map of Capital Punishment

 

"http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Capital_punishment/500px-Capital_punishment" alt="500px-Capital_punishment">

Dark Green = Abolished for all crimes (100).

Light Green =  Abolished for all crimes except under exceptional/special circumstances (such as crimes committed in wartime) (7)

Orange = Abolished in practice (under a moratorium or have not used capital punishment in at least 10 years) (48)

Red = Retainers of the death penalty (40)

 

Just have a look at the kind of nations which have the death penalty - and think about what kind of nation you want to live in.

 I have to admit I kind of assumed that Russia would have the death penalty. 

 

Unexplained disappearances and freak poisonings probably don't count.

[Wolfie]

Oops that's me on the list.

 

 

Anyone smell Polonium or is it just me?

[RLACML]

Of course, I would, But I would prefer to execute the killer myself. Nearly everyone in the world holds the same view. There is a small percentage of the world's population, however, which has been so brainwashed into sheep like behaviour that they no longer believe that they have any control over their lives and all their decisions have been delegated to the ruling elite. These strange defenceless people mainly live in Western Europe.

When someone comes out with something like this, they are clearly beyond reasoning. I'm out

[eddie]

Even though you have written that you don't believe in capital punishment I believe that you do, in fact, believe in it. Imagine the worse thing possible happening to all those you love. Ask yourself if you really would be happy with the killer not being executed. If Hitler had surrendered then do you think life imprisonment would have been the right punishment.

 

There is nothing to debate. Inventing a ludicrous strawman argument AND Godwinning the thread simultaneously means the you lost twice at the same time - quite an achievement.

[King Kevin]

Tough one this ,I am against it for the simple reason its impossible to rectify a miscarriage of justice .It must be the worst thing in the world to be executed for something you haven't done. 

 

The other thing is if you asked me would I steal anything I could hand on heart say no ,if you asked me could I kill someone absolutely if some harmed my kids or grand kids .I would have no hesitation in killing them [slowly].

 

However out and out killings like Lee Rigby then yes  ,clear cut evidence etc ,I don't want to pay for the low life's to stay alive in a cushy prison and be out in 10 years.

[Albert]

Tough one this ,I am against it for the simple reason its impossible to rectify a miscarriage of justice .It must be the worst thing in the world to be executed for something you haven't done. 

 

The other thing is if you asked me would I steal anything I could hand on heart say no ,if you asked me could I kill someone absolutely if some harmed my kids or grand kids .I would have no hesitation in killing them [slowly].

 

However out and out killings like Lee Rigby then yes  ,clear cut evidence etc ,I don't want to pay for the low life's to stay alive in a cushy prison and be out in 10 years.

Worth noting that in America, executing people actually tends to cost more than just housing them for the rest of their lives.

Speaking of needing an iron clad case though, where is the line drawn? The debate always rages on in America, but estimates are that it's around a 4% error rate.

[Posh Ram]

Of course, I would, But I would prefer to execute the killer myself. Nearly everyone in the world holds the same view. There is a small percentage of the world's population, however, which has been so brainwashed into sheep like behaviour that they no longer believe that they have any control over their lives and all their decisions have been delegated to the ruling elite. These strange defenceless people mainly live in Western Europe.

And with that sentence, you've destroyed your argument. If you'd provided me with good arguments I wouldn't have agreed with you, but I'd have listened. Instead you suggest that you'd get some kind of pleasure out of execution, so you come across as cold and heartless. And then you proceed to criticise Western society like an extremist. I'm done debating with you; I've won. Goodbye.

[Duracell]

Of course, I would, But I would prefer to execute the killer myself. Nearly everyone in the world holds the same view. There is a small percentage of the world's population, however, which has been so brainwashed into sheep like behaviour that they no longer believe that they have any control over their lives and all their decisions have been delegated to the ruling elite. These strange defenceless people mainly live in Western Europe.

Have you looked at my map? Or have you conducted a survey to prove that "nearly everyone" shares your view?

[AndyinLiverpool]

Was it always like this in the Normanton End?

 

I'm glad I was an Ossie Ender.

[Albert]

Have you looked at my map? Or have you conducted a survey to prove that "nearly everyone" shares your view?

I think he summed his point up perfectly by saying he'd enjoy getting revenge by murdering someone. That's pretty much the only argument for the death penalty, that it would "be better" to get revenge. The simple points about it though are:

- There are errors, in America it's around a 4% error rate

- It's a huge economic drain to go through the process, it's actually cheaper to lock people up for life

- State sponsored murder is still murder

Those 3 points alone should be enough for the argument to be put to bed.

[Normanton End]

I think he summed his point up perfectly by saying he'd enjoy getting revenge by murdering someone.

I never said I would take pleasure in executing the killer. I said I would prefer to kill the killer myself. You can prefer to do something yourself without taking pleasure in it. I prefer to take the bins out myself but I don't enjoy it.

There are really two different arguments that are getting confused on here. The first is whether killers should be killed. That question has already been answered by Kant and John Stuart Mill, two of the cleverest people who have ever lived, and they both said yes. There is nobody on here a fraction as clever as those two so you can forget about your own moral arguments carrying much weight.

The other question is about the possibility of innocent people being killed under a capital punishment system. That's more to do with politics and policing than with moral philosophy and it has no bearing on whether we should kill someone who we are certain is a killer.

How can you ever be certain? Well, the same question could prevent us punishing anyone. How do we know for certain anyone is guilty of anything?

[AmericanRam]

Good replies on this.As stated I wholly believe in it; yes even with the error rate.Those who kill children are the lowest scum out there and I would pull the lever or whatever myself if I could.Some may frown at that,but hey to each his own.

America is not perfect in this I know.I will be the first to say that.I love my country and am a true Patriot and hope some things can change here.

[Normanton End]

Have you looked at my map? Or have you conducted a survey to prove that "nearly everyone" shares your view?

The vast majority of the poplulation lives in the red bits. Also the African and South American colourings are not accurate. They rely more on street justice than on any legal system.

[Wolfie]

 That question has already been answered by Kant and John Stuart Mill, two of the cleverest people who have ever lived, and they both said yes. There is nobody on here a fraction as clever as those two so you can forget about your own moral arguments carrying much weight.

 

Crikey, I'm liking you more by the minute.....

[Albert]

I never said I would take pleasure in executing the killer. I said I would prefer to kill the killer myself. You can prefer to do something yourself without taking pleasure in it. I prefer to take the bins out myself but I don't enjoy it.

There are really two different arguments that are getting confused on here. The first is whether killers should be killed. That question has already been answered by Kant and John Stuart Mill, two of the cleverest people who have ever lived, and they both said yes. There is nobody on here a fraction as clever as those two so you can forget about your own moral arguments carrying much weight.

The other question is about the possibility of innocent people being killed under a capital punishment system. That's more to do with politics and policing than with moral philosophy and it has no bearing on whether we should kill someone who we are certain is a killer.

How can you ever be certain? Well, the same question could prevent us punishing anyone. How do we know for certain anyone is guilty of anything?

Why would you prefer you did it?

Nice use of fallacy. Sadly though "appeal to authority" doesn't really say much.

For those that don't know by the way, Immanuel Kant was an 18th century Prussian philosopher, whilst John Stuart Mill was a 19th century British Philosopher. Kant's philosophies are central to modern philosophy, whilst John Stuart Mill was an advocate of Liberty of the person coming above state control. In terms of crime and punishment, the modern world is quite a different one from the one they lived in, and though their thoughts on the matter were something discussed at the time, the modern world, and the hard facts of our time speak the opposite.

Whilst you're attempting to bring them into it though, could you rationalise your argument from their philosophies, rather than just stating "they thought this". They would have likely been disgusted by your chosen method of discussion, as you made no reference to why they thought that way, only stating that they did. You have failed to offer an argument in that regard.

You have also failed to justify the costs of capital punishment.

Not to mention that you entirely missed the point that capital punishment cannot be "undone" if an error was made, when there is at least a chance when someone is given life in prison. Are you genuinely saying that you think that any number of innocent people killed by the state is acceptable?

Edit: Worth pointing out that error rate is important in the philosophy of capital punishment, as it relates to how we determine guilt, and at what point something is truly "beyond doubt". In America for example, the standard of proof is "beyond doubt", yet they still tick along at an estimated 4% wrongful execution rate, this is with the best of lawyers on both sides, appeals courts and so forth.

[EastKentRam]

I never said I would take pleasure in executing the killer. I said I would prefer to kill the killer myself. You can prefer to do something yourself without taking pleasure in it. I prefer to take the bins out myself but I don't enjoy it.

There are really two different arguments that are getting confused on here. The first is whether killers should be killed. That question has already been answered by Kant and John Stuart Mill, two of the cleverest people who have ever lived, and they both said yes. There is nobody on here a fraction as clever as those two so you can forget about your own moral arguments carrying much weight.

The other question is about the possibility of innocent people being killed under a capital punishment system. That's more to do with politics and policing than with moral philosophy and it has no bearing on whether we should kill someone who we are certain is a killer.

How can you ever be certain? Well, the same question could prevent us punishing anyone. How do we know for certain anyone is guilty of anything?

 

Haha

 

They're smart, they said this, they must be right.

 

I'm sure those of us on the flip side of the argument could do exactly the same thing with equal creditability. 

 

Name me some modern day philosophers/thinkers who support the death penalty? Just to get a better handle on the type of person you consider intelligent. 

[Albert]

Haha

 

They're smart, they said this, they must be right.

 

I'm sure those of us on the flip side of the argument could do exactly the same thing with equal creditability. 

 

Name me some modern day philosophers/thinkers who support the death penalty? Just to get a better handle on the type of person you consider intelligent.

Don't just name people, never just name them. Explain their point, explain it's relevance.