Jason Roberts At It Again

[Ewe Ram]

Saying that football managers should be chosen following a fair recruitment campaign is bizarre

It's not McDonald's. They're responsible for getting bums on seats too and the draw for the fans is also a factor in bigger clubs. Hence the merry go round of old names. Just one reason why it's not a scientific selection method

[Ewe Ram]

Personally I'd be insulted if someone gave me a job just because of the colour of my skin/my gender.

I'd want to be the best person for the job.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Personally I'd be insulted if someone gave me a job just because of the colour of my skin/my gender.

I'd want to be the best person for the job.

That's totally missing the point.

It's not giving someone a job because of the colour of their skin. It's ignoring the colour of people's skin throughout the whole process.

[Bris Vegas]

That's totally missing the point.

It's not giving someone a job because of the colour of their skin. It's ignoring the colour of people's skin throughout the whole process.

 

Genuinely can't believe you're advocating that there is some sort of problem going on here.

 

Serious question - Which black manager would you like at Derby County if we were to sack Steve McClaren tomorrow?

[Ewe Ram]

That's totally missing the point.

It's not giving someone a job because of the colour of their skin. It's ignoring the colour of people's skin throughout the whole process.

Then they need to accept they're not good enough for the job.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Then they need to accept they're not good enough for the job.

Yes, all black managers and coaches are **** and should never be considered for any coaching job ever.

 

They are useless. Because they are black.

 

Satisfied?

[Ewe Ram]

It's not about skin, it's about ability.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Genuinely can't believe you're advocating that there is some sort of problem going on here.

 

Serious question - Which black manager would you like at Derby County if we were to sack Steve McClaren tomorrow?

 

I have no idea. The problem is that it is quite possible that the career path that McClaren has taken is blocked to some people and one of the reasons it is blocked might be the colour of someone's skin.

 

To say that everything is just dandy is simply complacent.

 

It's not about skin, it's about ability.

 

Yes, it should be. See my previous comments on meritocracy.

 

'Ability' often takes a back seat.

 

We support a club who employed Colin Todd, John Gregory, Phil Brown and Paul Jewell. And that's just this century. Who can possibly tell me those were appointments made on merit? Todd had failed more than once previously, Gregory was cavalier with players' fitness, Brown had only ever had caretaker experience at Bolton and Paul Jewell had left his previous job for reasons that only became apparent once he'd got the job of managing Derby.

 

If this level of risk exists (and this is just one club in the last decade and a half), why is the risk almost exclusively taken on white coaches?

[Ewe Ram]

Back to one of my previous posts- it's not a scientific selection process.

There's more to it than that, there's a history with a club (Todd, Clough etc) and an emotional attachment. There's an ability to bring with them certain players, there's an ability to draw a crowd, promote the club in other countries. I could go on. In my humble opinion skin colour is not the issue at all.

[Anon]

I've already explained why managers over 50 are almost all white. Also I can't really twist my head around your logic that because some white managers have been rubbish, clubs should start appointing black managers regardless of ability or experience.

 

If people like Roberts are serious about this then we need to see data regarding the ratio of qualified black coaches in the game. That may be difficult to obtain, as I suspect it would be considered racist to request someone clarify their ethnicity on an application for a coaching license.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Back to one of my previous posts- it's not a scientific selection process.

There's more to it than that, there's a history with a club (Todd, Clough etc) and an emotional attachment. There's an ability to bring with them certain players, there's an ability to draw a crowd, promote the club in other countries. I could go on. In my humble opinion skin colour is not the issue at all.

Skin colour is part of the issue. 

 

Another part of the issue you have highlighted yourself - the emotional approach to recruitment - Todd should never have been allowed anywhere near our club and he should have been weeded out by the recruitment process.

 

If you'll pardon the expression, it's not black and white. There are all sorts of factors at play, one of them is skin colour.

 

I've already explained why managers over 50 are almost all white. Also I can't really twist my head around your logic that because some white managers have been rubbish, clubs should start appointing black managers regardless of ability or experience.

 

If people like Roberts are serious about this then we need to see data regarding the ratio of qualified black coaches in the game. That may be difficult to obtain, as I suspect it would be considered racist to request someone clarify their ethnicity on an application for a coaching license.

 

I think you have misunderstood my point about risk.

Nobody takes a risk expecting failure. Football seems to take its risks with white coaches.

[randombc]

You could argue there are not enough Asian managers. They populate 1/3rd of the world so why isn't there more?

[R@M]

There is no such thing as reverse racism. It is just racism.

As of April 2013 there was 5 black managers in the top 92 clubs, Powell, Hughton, Ince, Davids and Kiwomya. the last three did not achieve anything of note. Powell had a bad season as did Hughton. Both will continue to get work.

There are currently approximately 70% English managers in the English leagues, with only 25% in the PL....something I think we should be more worried about.

The number of black managers is broadly in line with the general population percentages.

To pre-empt the next argument, that approximately a third of all players are black so more should be in management, black people ( as a race) have a genetic predisposition for athletics due to evolution in their historic homelands. This does not mean that all of the said players will outperform their national percentage for the intelligence required to manage a football team. Of course there are anomalys such as Pearce, but even he served a long apprenticeship with England.

Basically I would like these few to stop banging on about it, and do it. I'm sure if Michael Johnson applied for an assistant job and learned the trade for longer he would be more successful ( like Simmo). I think in the most part, Roberts and Campbell have worked out how to make money without risking themselves. I always thought Daryl Powell would make a good coach/manager, but he is clearly too clever for it as he has set up his own very successful players agency!

[Srg]

As you say, percentage of black players is ever increasing. Naturally, given time, managers will do the same.

 

If you're good enough, doesn't matter what colour or creed you are.

[Ewe Ram]

It's making an issue out of something that isn't an issue.

Why are there not any women in football management? Maybe I should bang on about that.

It's because women don't play the mans game but I could turn it into a gender issue if I wanted.

[LittleEatonRam]

Skin colour is part of the issue. 

 

Another part of the issue you have highlighted yourself - the emotional approach to recruitment - Todd should never have been allowed anywhere near our club and he should have been weeded out by the recruitment process.

 

If you'll pardon the expression, it's not black and white. There are all sorts of factors at play, one of them is skin colour.

 

 

I think you have misunderstood my point about risk.

Nobody takes a risk expecting failure. Football seems to take its risks with white coaches.

 

And Chris Powell didn't get the Charlton job simply on the back of being a club legend there?

 

Given that the percentage of black people in the country is somewhere around the 10% mark and black players make up 30% in the leagues, black players are in fact overrepresented when it comes to players.  Maybe we should address that and bring it in line with population statistics? Nope, thought not.

 

The contradiction in the sentiment that 'race doesn't matter because we're all human beings - but race matters because there are too few black managers' really jars for me.  It's like the talk not long ago about setting up a Black Footballers Association or whatever it was; you want to make it clear that black players are the same as everyone else, and to achieve that you want to create an organisation that emphasises how different they are? Yeah, great logic.

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

It's making an issue out of something that isn't an issue.

Why are there not any women in football management? Maybe I should bang on about that.

It's because women don't play the mans game but I could turn it into a gender issue if I wanted.

You should.

 

What makes a woman a less effective manager? Nothing at all. Except that the brazenly immature male world of football accepting orders from a woman.

[ilkleyram]

Genuinely can't believe you're advocating that there is some sort of problem going on here.

 

Serious question - Which black manager would you like at Derby County if we were to sack Steve McClaren tomorrow?

Bris - I think you make the point extremely well.

 

If we were to sack SM tomorrow there are only two English black managers who would even vaguely, possibly fit the bill - Chris Powell and Chris Hughton - in terms of their experience and knowledge and football background. Whether either would be a good or the right choice is a matter of opinion, but then we have that debate every time we appoint any manager of any colour. There may be black managers from abroad with the relevant skills and experience but not being an aficionado of foreign football, I don't know.

 

Given the paucity of choice and the ever greater numbers of black players, now over many years, it's not unreasonable of Jason Roberts and Co, therefore, to ask why there isn't a wider field, to ask whether there is a glass ceiling for black people wanting to become top line managers and, in the light of Malky Mackay's alleged comments, whether there is an inherent racism in football clubs that is preventing black coaches from coming through.

[Ewe Ram]

You should.

What makes a woman a less effective manager? Nothing at all. Except that the brazenly immature male world of football accepting orders from a woman.

That's so not true.

There probably is a woman who could do it but players would find it hard to accept as she wouldn't have played the game. Same as if a man hadn't, not because she's wearing a skirt.

[AndyinLiverpool]

And Chris Powell didn't get the Charlton job simply on the back of being a club legend there?

 

Given that the percentage of black people in the country is somewhere around the 10% mark and black players make up 30% in the leagues, black players are in fact overrepresented when it comes to players.  Maybe we should address that and bring it in line with population statistics? Nope, thought not.

 

The contradiction in the sentiment that 'race doesn't matter because we're all human beings - but race matters because there are too few black managers' really jars for me.  It's like the talk not long ago about setting up a Black Footballers Association or whatever it was; you want to make it clear that black players are the same as everyone else, and to achieve that you want to create an organisation that emphasises how different they are? Yeah, great logic.

 

Playing is about as meritocratic as football gets. You get a game because you can do the job. Yes managers still have their favourites and the omission of certain players jars with fans sometimes but it is still largely meritocratic. 

 

(although that doesn't stop some saying that some players ought to be picked because they are English)